BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT
14th of July 2014

What Is Dating Like For Women (and why does it matter to you)?

Introduction:

Tucker and Dr. Miller examine what dating is really like for women, by discussing a thought-provoking hypothetical for guys, Tucker’s experience in a gay bar, the varying consequences to sex for men and women, how men and women react differently in certain mating scenarios, and what it’s like to be an attractive woman who gets hit on constantly.

Podcast:


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Video:

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Key takeaways:

  • Any sort of mating interaction, short or long-term, is a negotiation, an exchange – and to do it well, you need to understand the other person’s wants and needs.
  • You need to realise that to women, you potentially appear as a threat, and her natural reaction will be to be wary of you.
  • The average guy finds the average girl attractive enough to have sex with. The reverse is not true.
  • What a woman’s friends think of her is incredibly important. This gives you two options. If she’s resistant to going home with you, then you can just ask her to call you later after she’s left her friends. Or you can ingratiate yourself with her friends. If you’re seen as high status with her friends, then the woman will actively want to go home with you because it gives her a status bump.
  • Most women are bored with their lives, their jobs, their school courses. If you can provide entertainment or humor, or brighten her day, that’s really valuable. But don’t ever walk up to a woman and tell her to smile more – it comes off as patronizing.
  • Women want to be appreciated for things that guys don’t often notice – their hair, their clothes, their shoes, their jewelry.
  • If a girl is very attractive, don’t compliment her on her looks, because everyone’s been doing that to her for years. Just treat her like a normal person.
  • Conversely, smart or charismatic women tend to respond better to compliments about their appearance.
  • Small talk serves a valuable social purpose. It shows social intelligence and awareness, kindness, intelligence and so on. If you start talking about her, she’ll get defensive or reticent, and if you start talking about yourself, you appear arrogant.

Links from this episode:

Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
This podcast, we’re gonna cover “What’s It Like To Be A Woman” and understand a woman’s perspective. Not what’s it like to be a woman literally. We’re not gonna teach guys how to…It’s more understanding a woman’s perspective. So, let’s actually begin with the first question that most guys are gonna ask. Why do I care about a woman’s perspective? Let’s put aside the sociopaths and the autistic weirdoes, whatever. But just a normal dude. Why should he care, in the context of dating? Of course if he loves a woman, he’s dating her, of course he does. But in the context of dating, sex, mating behavior. Why does he care about a woman’s perspective?

Geoff:
I think this is one really striking thing, that when we get emails to Mating Grounds from fans, it’s really clear, a lot of young guys just never do that point of view exercise. They never ask themselves, how does a woman think? Or feel? Or what do I look like from her point of view? And this is crazy, because in every other domain of life, if you’re going for a job interview, you’ve got to take the interviewer’s perspective and think, what questions might they ask? What do they want from me? What are their criteria? If you’re playing chess against an opponent and you just make a move and kind of guess…

Tucker:
And you don’t think about their perspective. Right.

Geoff:
…And you don’t anticipate what’s their counter-move, you will lose. Any negotiation, any interaction. If you’re a military general planning a campaign, you’ve got to anticipate, what are the other person’s priorities, abilities, preferences? And it’s the same with dating women. You’ve got to, at least a little bit, put yourself in her shoes and think, “What can I offer to her? What does she want from me?” It’s just basic empathy logic.

Tucker:
So, the basic idea, I think what you’re saying is, to make it super simple for the retards, is any sort of mating behavior, whether it’s straight hook-up, quazi-dating, full-on committed relationships is an exchange between two people. Sexual, physical, emotional, material, even. Right?

Geoff:
It’s always a relationship.

Tucker:
Any sort of exchange, any sort of relationship, you need to understand what the other side wants and needs. Right?

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Pretty basic. But, you’re right, most guys never even—you wouldn’t believe it, I know you would believe it because you’ve seen the emails. But it never ceases to shock me, how many guys are like, “Oh, I’ve never thought about what I have to offer the woman, why a woman would want to date me. Or fuck me, even.” Like, “Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense! That’s great! Thank you!” I’m like, how did you never think of this?

Geoff:
And this is where guys misunderstanding what objectification means. When women say, “Don’t objectify me.” It’s not necessarily meaning, “Don’t notice that I have a body. Don’t notice that I’ve got boobs and a butt and great hair and a nice smile.” Objectification means that you’re not even paying attention to the fact that she is a conscious being with beliefs and desires and an agenda and a life of her own.

Tucker:
Wants, needs, history, all that stuff.

Geoff:
And honestly, most guys could get three times better at dating if they just spent a few minutes a day thinking, “Yeah, what’s it like to be a woman and what do they want?”

Tucker:
“What’s she thinking about?”

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
So, you actually did this thought exercise with me, I remember, a few months ago, and I was blown away at how effective this thought exercise was. And you told me the way that I teach guys how to understand women is to project themselves sort of into a gay bar, right? Why don’t you run through exactly how you did it with me?

Geoff:
Yeah, so imagine you’re a straight guy and you go into a crowded, happening gay bar, but where all the guys there are a lot taller than you, like seven feet tall, have a lot of muscle where you immediately feel physically vulnerable. The way a woman would in a straight club. And you’re aware that they all have a sexual agenda. If you’re even a little bit cute, they would all like to mate with you or put their penises inside you somehow. And you’re aware of that. They’re eyeing you up. They’re objectifying you. And also imagine that most of them are – and this is unlike an actual gay bar – imagine most of them are unstylish and boring and don’t own their sexuality and they’re boorish and they don’t know how to talk to you and they’re just kind of sitting around, creeping you out. That’s kind of the experience a lot of women have at bars, clubs, parties, wherever they go. Even classrooms, places of work. That’s their experience. Feeling physically vulnerable, objectified, a lot of people want to mate with you who you would never want to mate with. And that’s a woman’s reality. And if you can wrap your head around that, it’ll help you a lot to kind of stand out from that background noise.

Tucker:
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. There’s a story in I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell about this. The first time I ever really went to a seriously happening gay bar, and the only thing that’s different from your story, really, is they were the same size as me. So, I wasn’t physically intimidated or threatened, which is a big, big part of it. If you’re a normal dude, 5’9”, 150 pounds, if you’ve ever been around someone who’s big, on a deep, unconscious level, it’s like, “Holy shit, this dude could fucking kill me.” You understand what that means. But everything else is exactly what he described it. They all knew I was straight, obviously, ‘cause I was poorly dressed and I was with a woman. So, I was clearly straight and it’s like, apparently a big thing, maybe not with all gay guys, but a lot of gay guys, there’s a big thing in gay culture to either sleep with a straight guy or to convert a straight guy. I’m sure I’m getting something wrong with this, but one of the dudes was like, “Yeah, I only sleep with straight guys.” And I was like, “Wouldn’t that make them gay?” And he goes, “Oh, no, honey, they don’t think they’re gay.” They have wives or whatever. That’s a thing, I guess, in gay culture, but yeah. It was so weird. I had never been around a set of people – they were all nice, right? Buying me drinks. I was like, “Ah, this is fun.” And then after an hour, I was like, all these dudes are trying to put their dicks in my ass or suck my dick or whatever it was they wanted to do, right? I was like, this is really fucking creepy. I had this weird existential moment of clarity where I was like, “Holy shit. Do I do this to women?” And then I was like, “Of course I do it to women! I’m a fucking dirt bag.” Especially at that point in my life, I was like twenty-seven. I was like, “Oh, my god. This is kind of shitty.” It was really kind of unfun. I kind of got creeped out and kind of wanted to leave and go home and take a shower, not because of the gay thing. The gay thing wasn’t bothering me. It was the fact that that was true objectification and that really was creepy to me.

Geoff:
Tucker was just a piece of meat to them. And you weren’t used to it.

Tucker:
Right, the gay shit didn’t bother me at all! I’m not threatened by gay dudes around. It’s like, yeah, that’s cool, no problem. I wasn’t threatened. I just really felt really slimy by the fact that none of them cared about me as…I don’t get why…

Geoff:
You weren’t a special snowflake to them…

Tucker:
That was the funny part. The thing that was maybe even the most creepy to me was the guy I liked the best was the one who wasn’t the most forward and making jokes…there was one dude that was just going on and on with hypotheticals about, “Oh, you like having your ass licked. Well, what if a girl started and you didn’t know and a guy kind of came in and she left?” And I was like, taking the hypothetical seriously for a second, and I’m like, well, how could that happen and why would this girl do that and…I’m like, wait a minute, what are you talking about?! And then there was another dude who was actually the best looking. I remember, if this dude was straight, he would’ve just been crushing all day long. But he was the one who treated me most like a person and was cool about it, and I liked him the most. I remember thinking at the end. Like, if I was gonna be gay, this is the dude I would do it with. Not only because he’s better looking, but because he didn’t treat me like a piece of meat. We’re gonna have to cut all of this.

Jason:
That should stay in.

Tucker:
No, I know. Fuck you, Jason. But you’re totally right in every way.

Geoff:
You know, I had a moment of clarity back in grad school at Stanford. I was in better shape than now. I would go to the weightlifting place and thought I was kind of hot shit for being a skinny academic, and I could lift a reasonable amount. Then, the whole Stanford varsity football team was walking down the hall past me from their special varsity football weightlifting room, and they all seemed two feet taller than me and four times the body mass, and I thought, “Oh, my god. This is what women feel like around men. That…these guys can do anything they want to me, and I could do nothing back.”

Tucker:
Except cry and scream. That’s it. And hope someone with a gun is around.

Geoff:
I thought, wow. Living in fear is something most guys don’t get.

Tucker:
So to tie this back to why it matters to guy. It’s because you need to understand, if you’re in a bar or on a sports team or even in a party, this is shit that women think about and live with every single day. If you can understand that – it doesn’t mean you have to talk about it, it’s not like you should go up to girls and be like, “Hey, so you’re pretty scared about how much bigger I am than you” or something. It’s not a conversation starter. It’s understanding that this is a deep, intrinsic, almost genetic way that you see the world, and limiting. When you have the opportunity, if you’re really big, being really nice and positioning yourself so that you don’t feel like you’re a threat will immediately make the woman….First understanding that so you can do it, but then immediately, the woman’s going to be far more into you because you’re not a menacing, big threat. You’re this warm, nice guy. Right?

Geoff:
Yeah. She wants to feel safe. And she wants to feel like, the bigger and stronger you are, the more you have to convince her that you’re on her side. You would defend her from other guys. You’re her protector, her tender defender. You’re not a potential creep or a rapist or whatever. If you can genuinely convey that sense of safety…What women really care about at first is basically just maintaining their power of female choice. Maintaining their autonomy, their ability to say no. And if you clearly are sending signals that are like, “I respect your ability to say no to me, and if you do, no hard feelings. I’m going away. It’s cool.” If you are that creep or that muscle-bound threat, then her defenses are immediately up as they should be.

Tucker:
It doesn’t mean you have to be big. You can be her size and still be a threat, if you’re very creepily aggressive or staring a lot or…any stalking behavior. I don’t know of a way to turn a woman off quicker than to be a potential stalker.

Geoff:
To be a predator, yeah.

Tucker:
A predator. No woman’s like, “Man, I really like this guy. He’s just so persistent! No matter what I say, he just keeps coming. That’s so attractive.” No woman has ever said that. I shouldn’t say that…Being persistent is sort of like a fundamentally different thing than stalking or creeping.

Geoff:
Yeah. Persistence, if it’s done nicely and respectfully, that’s courtship. That’s romantic. Proof that means you take this woman seriously and it’s worth pursuing. But, if you’re eyeing her like an anaconda eyeing a goat…

Tucker:
No woman’s like that. “I feel like meat when I’m around him. It’s so great.” No one’s ever said that. You actually brought this point. I forget when we were talking about this, but I hadn’t thought about this before. This is another good way to frame how women think and their experience. The question really isn’t for guys, why won’t she have sex with you. The question, given the way that women’s experience in life – like you said, guys are bigger, stronger, meaner, smell bad, dress bad, are less emotionally intelligent, less socially intelligent, all these negatives. And there’s plenty of positives, but the negatives, especially for guys who don’t have a lot of positives, the negatives are big. So, the question for women is not, why isn’t she fucking you? The question is, why is she fucking any guy at all? You think about that for a second. Believe me, neither Geoff nor I are sitting here saying, “Oh man, you’re all fucked up and you’re terrible and you have nothing to offer.” No, no, no. I think what we’re saying, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that as a guy, you need to understand that your job, if you want to have quality relationships – whether they’re short-, medium-, or long-term – with women, your job is to be attractive to her because most guys are not attractive to most women. Sexually attractive. Right?

Geoff:
Yeah. Most guys are not, and they seem to assume that, “Oh, if she goes to a bar, she obviously wants to choose somebody.” No, no, no. You have to bear in mind, she has a life. She has female friends who entertain her, and she can hang out with and have a good time with. She has some male friends who hang around and who she’s established sexual boundaries with. She’s got her family, she’s got her job, her school, her interests. The question is, what do you add on top of that? What’s your marginal value? What’s your extra contribution to the life she already has? She doesn’t need a guy. Unless she’s late-thirties, clock’s ticking, need to nail somebody down.

Tucker:
And even then, she can just go to a sperm bank.

Geoff:
Yeah. She doesn’t need a guy. So you’ve gotta look at it like, “What value can I add to her life?” Just like a marketer trying to launch a new start-up product has to ask, “What value do I add to my consumers’ lives?”

Tucker:
Right. So, there’s a fundamental precept that a lot of guys don’t understand that the average guy finds the average woman at least somewhat sexually attractive. Like, if I’m walking down the street, I would say, forget if I have a girlfriend or whatever. I would say somewhere between sixty and eighty percent of the women, maybe even more if I’ve had something to drink. If they come up to me and are like, “Hey, let me just suck your dick in the alley really quick and then we’ll go our own ways and no problem.” Let’s assume I full believe her. I’m gonna say yes probably at least eighty percent of the time, and I think most guys would get into the upper ninety percent, right? Like, the times you say no are crack heads and crazy homeless women and shit, where you don’t believe that they’re not gonna hurt you or something.

Geoff:
Women over, maybe seventy, you know…

Tucker:
Right. Of course, right. Whereas, if you reverse that, how many women are saying yes? I mean, I guess it exists, but basically zero. It’s almost totally inverted. Where, if a guy comes up to a woman and is like, “Hey, I want you to suck my dick in the alley and then we’re never gonna see each other again.” There are guys who are that attractive and have that much charisma and maybe it happens one out of every hundred times, but that doesn’t happen. And most guys don’t realize that that, like, oh, that’s just the way it is. But that has implications. That reversal exists for a reason.

Geoff:
Yeah, and there’s studies on this where people have actually gone up to strangers and asked, “Hey, would you have coffee with me? Would you have a date with me? Would you go back to my room? Would you have sex?” And under those conditions, the more intimate, the more likely a guy is to say yes. More guys will say yes to sex than to coffee.

Tucker:
Really?

Geoff:
Yeah. Surprisingly, the majority of women will say yes to coffee if it’s a cute guy, but zero percent to sex. And even more than that, if you ask women, “Do you find guys physically attractive, on average?” Women find the average guy not physically attractive, even apart from uncommitted sex and all of the shaming that goes around that. Whereas, yeah, the average guy finds the average woman roughly of his age attractive.

Tucker:
At least attractive enough to fuck. Maybe not date. That’s the reversal, I think. We kind of just spent maybe twenty minutes talking about how shitty guys are and how choosey women are. What is it reversed, though? That’s talking about relatively short-term sexual relationships. When you’re talking about longer-term committed relationships, that’s where guys get very choosey and women tend to actually lower their choosiness. Once a guy’s above a certain level, they’re like, “I’ll take the best one I can get.” Obviously, I’m kind of stereotyping to make a point. Whereas guys are like, “Eh.” That’s when they get super choosey, is commitment. They’re super unchoosey with sex. And it makes sense. ‘Cause the consequence of sex is what?

Geoff:
Childbirth.

Tucker:
Yeah. And the consequence is way different for men and for women, right?

Geoff:
Yeah, absolutely. This is another thing we should talk a little bit about. The big difference, the big asymmetry between the sexes in terms of, it’s the woman who can A. get pregnant and B. is at higher risk of sexually transmitted infections, whatever those infections are. So, the potential costs and risks to her, of short-term sex, are just objectively a lot higher. There’s pregnancy, there’s STI’s, and there’s reputation. Social issues. “What are my friends gonna think of me? What are my future boyfriends gonna think of me? My family,” all of that. Even just understanding those three things, I think, can help guys a lot in terms of…

Tucker:
Wait, those are the female barriers to sex that exist, regardless of how awesome you are. Female barriers to any sort of sexual relationship, regardless of who you are. There’s the pregnancy cost, right? Now, of course, someone’s gonna say, “Oh, well what about birth control?” The answer is pretty clear, and correct me if I’m wrong. Birth control’s not always effective and human decisions, a lot of them are unconscious. Birth control’s only been around fifty or seventy years?

Geoff:
Yeah, we’ve had condoms since only the 1880’s, effective ones that are widely distributed for fifty years. We’ve had the contraceptive pill only fifty years. But crucially, the mating psychology of women is shaped up by millions of years of assuming that, “If I have sex with this male, there’s a likelihood of pregnancy, and then years and years of commitment to raising that baby.” And that’s a fundamental difference.

Tucker:
The next thing is sexually transmitted diseases, right?

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And that’s not a nonzero cost. That’s a very real cost, even with condoms. I think the biggest thing that most guys don’t understand, let’s talk about this for a while, is the social cost of sexual behavior for women. I think very few guys understand this at all. For guys, having more sex is almost always socially beneficial, right? For women, it doesn’t work out that way. How does it work out for women socially?

Geoff:
We face this all the time when we do sex surveys. You know, when I do research. You ask guys, “How many women have you slept with?” They always kind of overestimate, and the more…if you get them a little tipsy or you get them uninhibited, the lower their estimates. For women, they’re always underestimating or underreporting how many guys.

Tucker:
Right. “Vacation sex doesn’t count!”

Geoff:
“It was my birthday…I was drunk, it didn’t count.”

Tucker:
“I kind of don’t remember it. I got drunk so I would fuck him and I cannot remember it.” That sort of thing.

Geoff:
So women do a little mental trick, just like men overestimate. The fundamental thing is female-female competition and sort of reputation management. It really matters a lot to women that if they want to get the high-quality guy to commit to them for, like, marriage, for actually settling down and raising kids, that high-quality guy is probably gonna worry, “Is she gonna be faithful to me? Is she capable of monogamy? Is she choosey? Or, if she’s slept with a hundred guys already, what’s the likelihood she’s suddenly going to stop with me and I’ll be the last guy she ever has sex with?”

Tucker:
We talked about this on another podcast, or we’re going to. It’s female-female competition. I think that’s what you’re talking about here, right?

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Like you said, I think on the other podcast, or you’re going to say on a future one, depending on how we arrange these, is that there’s not a whole lot of empirical, scientific data studying how women interact with other women about their sexual pasts and histories and how that impacts female behavior. But all the research and anecdotal reports are that things like slut-shaming don’t happen from guys. Or, very rarely. They tend to be weapons and social tools that women use against other women.

Geoff:
Yeah, and that’s their form of verbal aggression, mostly. When women criticize other women, it’s typically about, she’s too loose, she’s not choosey, she’s a slut, she’s promiscuous, et cetera. Now, to some guys, if a guy is seeking a one-night stand, that can be a little bit of a double-bind, ‘cause guys’ ears might perk up and go, “Oh, she’s super promiscuous. That’s great.” But, that guy’s not very likely to take that woman seriously as a long-term potential girlfriend.

Tucker:
At least, a lot of women believe that if they are immediately sexually receptive, they think that a guy will then take that as a signal of how they are with all guys. Absolutely, because a lot of guys do that. Whether it’s right or wrong. We’re not talking about right or wrong, what we think should happen. We’re talking about what happens, and absolutely, a lot of dudes, especially insecure guys, think…You know, it’s kind of funny. The more experience that I got with women, the less I thought that her sexual behavior with me necessarily reflected anything about her, good or bad. It was one data point. I met plenty of girls who’d had two or three partners, and we were fucking in six hours of meeting or something. Either it was the first time or they very rarely ever did that, and it was like, okay, that’s absolutely possible. It doesn’t matter how chaste or amazing a girl is, almost all women are gonna have one or two of those experiences in their life, and maybe it was with me. Of course, there’s the other side of the coin. The women who tell you that ‘cause they think they need to or the ones who are just very slutty, very promiscuous. So, how quickly they slept with me was not the determining data point. It became one data point of six that I would collect to determine…but most guys aren’t like that. Most guys don’t think like that, and it took me years to understand that.

Geoff:
Yeah, and if that woman had had female friends watching her interacting with you, and then that woman goes back to her dorm room or whatever the next day, her girlfriends are gonna make fun of her. It’s called the “walk of shame” for a reason. Women typically do not feel great about themselves the morning after a one-night stand unless they have a lot of self-confidence and maturity and wisdom and trust their tastes. Typically, it’s a walk of shame. If a co-worker notices, “Hey! You’re in the same clothes as yesterday,” they’ll turn beet red with embarrassment because of what that means about their sexual reputation. And this is absolutely crucial for guys to understand, that when women are thinking about short-term mating with you, they’re also thinking, “What will my friends think? Oh, I’m gonna have a phone call with my dad probably within a week. How am I gonna feel talking to my dad or my brothers or my ex-boyfriend or other people who matter to me?”

Tucker:
Even if it’s unconscious, it’s still going through their heads.

Geoff:
Right. It’s probably actually going through her head more consciously than you think ‘cause women ruminate about that stuff a lot. So, just remember, there’s a whole social context to her life and a lot of people around her that are gonna judge her for…

Tucker:
Even if it’s bullshit, they’re still gonna do it and it’s a price for her to pay.

Geoff:
Right. It’s a price she pays.

Tucker:
It’s funny, the more I learned about women, the more I stopped trying to separate a girl from her friends or stop trying to take girls home immediately and eventually played a very different game. Back when I had a lot more short-term mating partners, those were my goals, to have a lot. I started off being very impatient. Even a girl who I knew was into me, who wanted to fuck, but she wasn’t gonna leave the bar ‘cause her friends were there and she didn’t want them to see her leave with me. I would get pissed at her, and as I grew up and matured, I realized, no. She’s just responding in a very rational way to the incentives in front of her. So what I learned how to do was play a slower, more patient game. I don’t mean game, like trick. This is a girl who wants to sleep with me, okay? So, I would either give her my number, tell her to text me when she gets home, or I could be like, “Where do you live? I’ll come over,” and she’s like, “give me your number.” Or I would really ingratiate myself with her friends and ignore her, and what that would do is give her a status bump with her friends for fucking me, ‘cause it’s like, “Oh, I can’t believe you got to take that guy home. We were all trying. He’s so great. I wanted to sleep with him, too.”

Geoff:
“He was so cool. He was so nice. We like him. We approve.”

Tucker:
Exactly, “Oh, do you think you might start dating?” Then it’s, like, a bump instead of a slut-shame. There are a couple other things like that, but once I realized that women – it sounds awful to say, but the reality is it was true of me and I think it’s true of most guys – of course, I knew intellectually that women were people who had their own lives and whatever. I had just never actually connected that intellectual thought to their behavior and how I interacted with them. Once I did that, the world opened up. Let’s actually talk more about this, ‘cause you are pretty good at this. Take any woman you meet out, whether it’s at Whole Foods or doing yoga or even at a bar. What are some basic things about this woman’s life that guys are not thinking about, beyond the stuff we talked about?

Geoff:
The main thing is just, women are bored. They’re bored. They go to school and most of their professors suck. They go to work, their boss sucks. Their job sucks. If they’re working as a barista in a coffee shop, they get hit on by guys, mostly ineptly. They’re either bored or disgusted. If you can provide some little snippet of entertainment or humor or something to lighten her day. Again, it’s what value do you add to her life?

Tucker:
‘Cause you’re hitting on her because you think she’ll make your life better, whether it’s sexually or dating or commitment, whatever. It’s an exchange. It goes both ways.

Geoff:
Yeah. What do you offer her? And it’s not that hard to offer just a little more thrill, excitement, or romance than whatever her mundane life already offers…

Tucker:
Of course. Everyone’s life is kind of boring. What are some other things? I think there’s more female things, like women feeling inadequate, the body, clothes, things like that. Run down those sort of things.

Geoff:
Well, yeah. Remember that she might be on her period and self-conscious about that. Bras suck. Most bras don’t fit. Her boobs are pinched or hurt or whatever. Most women in modern America are pretty self-conscious about their bodies.

Tucker:
Especially because media always tells them they’re too fat, or something’s wrong with them. That’s how the media sells them shit.

Geoff:
And there’s research showing that most guys want women to be a little heavier, actually, than women think guys want them to be. They’re worried about what they’re wearing. Women care a lot about style, mostly for how they look compared to other women.

Tucker:
Even though guys don’t notice it.

Geoff:
But they also would like to be appreciated for the effort that they put into the hairstyle, the make-up, the clothing that most guys are absolutely oblivious to. Every item of clothing and jewelry a woman wore on any particular day was a choice that she probably made consciously.

Tucker:
Whereas most guys throw on what’s clean. Like, what’s on the floor that doesn’t smell. Especially when you’re younger.

Geoff:
Yeah. Like my favorite watch or your Lulu lemon shirts or whatever it is.

Tucker:
Right. I wear the same shirt every day so I don’t have to make a decision. I just put a fucking grey shirt on. It’s super simple, right? I think that’s a super good point. For the most part with most women, if she has done something with her appearance, it’s on purpose and it signals something intentional about her. Everything you do, everything about you and on you signals something. Most of it’s unintentional, but for women, clothing and those accouterments, jewelry, et cetera are intentional. So you should look at them and be like, oh, okay. She’s feeling very X or she thinks Y about herself or whatever. Right?

Geoff:
Yeah, and also bear in mind, given media, she’s not comparing herself to the other women who are actually in your social world. She’s comparing herself to the most beautiful models and actresses—

Tucker:
Which is ridiculous, but it’s true.

Geoff:
The little part of you that feels bad that you’re not Mark Zuckerberg and already a billionaire at twenty-four, she’s got that little part of her that’s kind of ashamed that she’s not as successful and famous as Miley Cyrus or whoever. So that’s her world. That’s her context.

Tucker:
I think there’s something that…I know I used to do this, and a lot of guys do this, is that they feel like, when you meet a girl, she didn’t have a history before you. Right? So if you think she’s hot, you’re like – it’s not conscious, you’re not stupid – it’s just…”Oh, well, I’m gonna tell her she’s hot because clearly I’m the only person who’s ever done this.”

Geoff:
Yeah. “I’m the first guy in history!” Yeah.

Tucker:
“No one knew she was hot before me.” And you don’t think about the fact that probably twenty fucking dudes a day tell her this, and a lot of them are creepy old men, and it’s like, “God, another guy who’s telling me I should smile. Go fuck yourself.”

Geoff:
Bear in mind, any woman who’s physically attractive to you has already been attractive to literally thousands of other boys and men…

Tucker:
Well, we’re talking about girls who are clearly attractive.

Geoff:
…Not since puberty, but since she was in fifth grade or whatever. I’m not saying fifth graders go around sexually fantasizing about each other, but her prettiness, her features, her charisma.

Tucker:
It’s been something people have talked to her about.

Geoff:
She’s had boys notice that forever. And it’s part of her background, like, “Oh, yeah. I’m a beautiful woman. Tell me something I don’t know.”

Tucker:
There’s a saying, that you tell beautiful women they’re smart and smart women they’re beautiful, and that’s a little shallow and cliché, but the point is a very good one, it’s that…I’ve dated some of the most beautiful women in the world, and they actually kind of get annoyed if you talk about their looks because that’s all anyone’s ever fucking talked to them about. Part of the reason they were attracted to me is not because I’m that attractive. God knows I’m way less attractive and rich than a lot of guys who are hitting on them. I’m the dude who treated them like a fucking person, not like a beautiful piece of art. And then vise-versa, I met some women that I was really into that were really smart or just had amazing social intelligence or charisma, that were not that hot. They’re not ugly, but they weren’t top-of-the-heap in terms of physical appearance, and with them, you really wanna talk about their appearance, ‘cause that’s where they’re sort of insecure. Of course, I found them attractive. It’s not like I’m telling some ugly girl she’s hot so I can fuck her. It’s more like, that’s what I focus on in terms of praise, social reinforcement, et cetera.

Geoff:
Bear in mind, every compliment you give a woman is giving her information about what you’re capable of noticing about her. How savvy and sensitive and discerning are you? So, if you see a beautiful woman and there’s two features that every other guy would comment on. Like, great boobs and amazing teeth. But you notice something a little more distinctive.

Tucker:
Maybe she’s got great shoes on.

Geoff:
She’s kind of secretly proud of it that nobody’s ever noticed before.

Tucker:
She’s smart, she’s got great shoes on, whatever.

Geoff:
Then not only are you demonstrating, “Oh, I’m investing the effort and the attention to notice that,” but you’re also articulating it and you’re also valuing her for something that other guys don’t value her for, and that’s kind of romantic proof.

Tucker:
Yeah. I think that’s super important. Just as a sort of side note, guys, don’t go up to a woman who’s not in a good mood or whatever and tell her to smile. I’ve never heard anything more uniformly annoying to women than dudes coming up and telling them to smile.

Geoff:
As if they have a public duty. As if as an American citizen, they’re supposed to maximize the amount of smiling.

Tucker:
I’ve never said that to women, but women – I hear this all the time – they hate it. Hate it. Especially, the more attractive they are, the more they hate it. I think that’s just because they hear it more or something. They get really pissed off.

Geoff:
Well, it’s a kind of denial of their intelligence. Like, “You don’t even have enough of a brain that you have anything legitimately you could be upset or sad about.” Right?

Tucker:
“Your job is to be a mannequin for me.”

Geoff:
“Your job is to look physically appealing and cheerful.” It’s really patronizing.

Tucker:
We’re gonna get into this in later podcasts, but I tell this to guys all the time. Never start a conversation with a woman about you or about her. Always start with objective external things that you guys can talk about. They’ll go, “I hate small talk,” but small talk serves a very important social purpose. It signals any number of things that women want to know about you. Your kindness, your intelligence, your social ability, all these sorts of things, and if you start talking about her, it makes her defensive or reticent, and if you start talking about you, you just come off as a bragging dick. And if you go the other way and you’re humble, then you seem like a coward, right? That’s why people talk about the weather a lot, because it’s something external. It’s a great equalizer. Rich, poor, big, small, everyone has to deal with the weather. So, it’s sort of like…sports are the same way. How about those Mets, right? Everyone follows that stuff. Alright, so let’s sum this up. Big, conscious fears that women have. I think we covered them. Especially, we’re talking about social mating interactions with guys. This is once a girl’s decided to sleep with you, or is thinking about it. Immediate conscious barriers: I’m gonna get pregnant, I’m gonna get an STD, my friends are gonna think I’m a slut.

You need to understand that if you’re a guy. Unconscious fears, and these can be conscious, but these are genetically programmed in, sort of: you’re worried that a guy can kill you, or at least rape you, God forbid. Something terrible. Some sort of physical. Dudes are bigger than you and they are stronger than you and are at core, mammalian, sort of animal-level. Size is a very good proxy for ability to create violence. This could be conscious or unconscious. You’re worried the guy’s gonna shame you or talk about you, which is the other side of the female friends calling you a slut. You’re worried that he’s gonna use you. “He’s basically gonna use my body as a cum dumpster,” and this is sort of the other side of the pregnant, STD sort of thing. “I have to bear the cost of sexual activity and I get none of the upside.” So, these are things that women are consciously or unconsciously always thinking about that you need to at least understand as a guy and have some sort of empathy for, ‘cause at the very least, it’s gonna make you better at attracting women, if you understand this stuff.

Geoff:
Yeah. There’s one other thing I might add, which I’ve kind of just thought about this morning, which is if a guy picks up a woman and they go home and have sex, he’s virtually guaranteed to enjoy it. He will enjoy the sex. There’s gonna be something really freaking bizarre about her if he doesn’t. If he has intercourse and cums, it will be pleasant, at least, for him. For a woman, it’s quite different. She has no guarantee that you’re gonna have any skill in bed, that you know what you’re doing, that she’s gonna enjoy it. Your kissing might suck, your foreplay might suck. She may or may not have an orgasm. But, she doesn’t know. Even if it’s just a basic, physical, sexual level, is it gonna be worth her time? And that’s also something you’ve gotta bear in mind. This is why women value certain skills like a guy who can kind of flirt with them and touch them a little bit.

Tucker:
Dancing.

Geoff:
Dancing. If he is a good dancer.

Tucker:
You can dance, you can fuck.

Geoff:
Even being a good kisser.

Tucker:
Hugely important.

Geoff:
These are all assessment mechanisms that kind of increase her chances a little bit, that, yeah, I’ll actually get just the sexual pleasure I want out of him, which is not guaranteed for her the way it is for a guy.

Tucker:
Yup. Alright, cool, I think that’s actually fantastic. We’re gonna wrap this one right here.

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