BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT
16th of July 2014

John Durant Interview

Introduction:

In this episode Tucker interviews John Durant, author of The Paleo Manifesto. John openly and honestly talks about his failings with women, and goes through the steps he took to become more confident and charismatic, and thus more successful (with the help of paleo principles). John and Tucker also talk about the big problems that hold a lot of guys back, and how to fix them, as well as how to meet women in a big city like New York.

Podcast:


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Video:

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Key takeaways:

  • With regards to both diet and psychology, we can understand a lot more about ourselves by taking into account our evolution and ancestors.
  • Being more masculine in bed means doing what you want to do confidently. There are no perfect positions or ways of doing it – just do it confidently.
  • You can be chivalrous and polite but also assertive and masculine at the same time.
  • Two things that contribute towards being a man: 1) taking responsibility and being accountable; and 2) physical exertion – sports, working out, MMA etc.
  • Sometimes relationships don’t work out. That’s OK – but you need to have enough respect for yourself not to think that the girl’s affection for you defines who you are.
  • A paleo lifestyle will make you healthier and stronger, which gives you more confidence. You’ll also have better posture, clearer skin, higher testosterone levels and more energy – all of which make you more attractive to women.
  • To drastically reduce or clear acne, eliminate processed foods, sugar, caffeine and dairy.
  • If you’re asking a girl out, don’t say “Would you like to go out some time?” That elicits a yes or no response. It’s better and more assertive to say “Let’s go out some time.” She can still say no if she doesn’t want to.
  • Similarly, if you’re picking a restaurant, don’t go back and forth asking what times work for her, what sort of food she likes, etc., just say “Let’s do thursday, 8pm at this place.” Again, she can just say no if that doesn’t work for her, and you appear much more assertive and confident.
  • There is never an exact right moment to kiss a girl. There are wrong moments, but no one right moment. You create the moment through your own presence and attraction.
  • Signs a girl is into you: physical contact, laughing at your jokes, offering alternative times and dates if she can’t make your original plans.
  • You can meet women through pursuing your interests (in John’s case, paleo and barefoot running groups). This means you both have something in common, and she won’t want you to give those things up if you get into a relationship.
  • Whatever your goals are with women – short-term hookups or long-term relationships – improving yourself is the best way to do it.

Links from this episode

John Durant’s Bio:

  • Author of The Paleo Manifesto – fairly detailed overview of the book here.
  • Founder of Paleo NYC and Barefoot Running NYC meetup groups – supposedly the largest groups of their kind in the world.
  • Featured on the Colbert Report – 6 min video clip here.
  • Featured in the NYT in Jan 2010 article (here) that looked at the paleo community in NYC.
  • Studied Evolutionary Psychology at Harvard.
  • Advises food and health start-ups, including Exo, who developed a protein bar made from crickets

The Paleo Manifesto

  • Robb Wolf called his book “likely the most important contribution to the ancestral health story since Boyd Eaton’s original paleolithic prescription”.
  • Good overview/review of what the book covers here – part one is the historical and evolutionary changes up until now, part two is the introduction to a paleo lifestyle, and part three looks at the ethical and environmental aspects of paleo living.
  • Covers the usual paleo eating side of stuff (which he does with an analogy of an unhealthy gorilla that the zoo treat by feeding him meat and plants instead of the fibre bars they usually eat).
  • Contains a chapter called “Moses the Microbiologist” which is a discussion on what the Bible has to say about food and hygeine, eating kosher etc. and how this emerged, and what impact it had on health.
  • Book goes into a lot of depth on things like exercise and movement, thermoregulation, sleep, sun exposure (this Q&A says that food is only actually about 15% of the book) – what Durant describes as a “habitat-based approach to health”.
  • Durant describes how NASA takes a paleo-like approach when looking at how to keep astronauts healthy in space: making sure to sleep consistently, exercising regularly.
  • Advocates self-experimentation, making changes and seeing how the body responds (what he calls “biohacking”)
  • Talks about hunting his own food as well

Further reading on John Durant:

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
So I’m here with John Durant who wrote “The Paleo Manifesto” and is one of the leaders in the Paleo community, one of the thought leaders I guess you would say right, you like that term or not?

John:
I’m the strongest and best-looking, that’s… Forget my ideas, a thought leader, yes yes, exactly, I’m quite intellectual.

Tucker:
So John, I’ve known you for, how long have we known each other, three or four years now?

John:
Yes, something like that.

Tucker:
Yeah, right. And I got to tell you, for real, we’ll start off this podcast to a little bit of, there’s no other way to call it, but like sort of verbal “dick-sucking.”

John:
Most dick-sucking is.

Tucker:
No, most dick sucking is oral, this one is verbal. So you spend, you know you’re here in town in Austin for Paleo FX, you spent, I guess, 3 or 4 nights in my place right? So you think you’re gonna give me 4 or 5 stars Yelp?

John:
Well, when you didn’t have coffee stocked, it was a big problem. But then when you got it for me on the way back from brunch that was great service.

Tucker:
That was pretty good, so I’m back to 5 stars now?

John:
Great service.

Tucker:
Now I have to say that we spent a lot of time in the past days together, I was super impressed with – I knew you’re a smart guy. But there are a lot of smart guys right, and it’s like to me, the real marker of someone’s intelligence is how much of a thinker are they. Like when someone says something, are they just waiting for their turn to talk or are they actually listening to what they’re saying, evaluating it and then speaking exactly to what they’re saying. You know, and how easily will someone change their mind, you know? New facts come along: do you think about the facts and change your mind or do you just react, right?

John:
Most people filter out facts that don’t fit their current world view.

Tucker:
Exactly.

John:
And you don’t wanna change your mind at the slightest whim but there had been a few issues where I’ve had done a 180 or at least a 120, so…

Tucker:
Right. Yeah, I know I was just saying, that is super impressive. I didn’t realize, I always knew you are smart and I always knew you that you are good at the things you do, I didn’t realize how much of a thinker you are until the last few days. Pretty impressive, I’m feeling excited.

John:
I appreciate that. I didn’t realize that you were a thinker as well.

Tucker:
Well you don’t have to compliment me, I’d do that myself, alright, get out of here. No, I’m kidding. So let’s get to the part that people care about. Our average listeners are probably about 15-25 and it’s a guy, and he’s generally not as successful to women as he wants. And that can be either a dude who’s pathetic and just can’t do anything right with women or a guy who does ok but feels like he’s not doing as well as he could.

John:
Well, that’s me from age 15-25.

Tucker:
Exactly what I was gonna ask you. You have a very interesting story, even independent of the book and what you’re doing now, I think, a very interesting story of how you got to this sort of where you are. So why don’t you talk a little about where you started, what happened to you as a man and your relationship to women and where you are now.

John:
You know middle school and high school were a series of unrequited crushes. Yeah, I was in, you know, I was smart, I was athletic, captain of the lacrosse team, whatever, but I still didn’t quite put the pieces together in relation to girls and you know, so I got in to Harvard and I thought, “oh that increase in status is going to make the girls situation easy”

Tucker:
Of course.

John:
Which was absolutely wrong cause…

Tucker:
Because every dude in Harvard got into Harvard.

John:
That’s right. And then you’re like, you’ll obnoxiously drop the “H” bomb, you know, you don’t know how to do it. And so for a while that really built up a certain level of what amounted to bitterness over a 10-15 year period. When you know I thought, “I’m athletic, I’m intelligent, I sort of got my shit together,” and I’m not getting the type of relationships or girls that I’d like to get.

Tucker:
So to be clear, at that point did you want lots of short term hook-ups or did you want a girlfriend, did you want a sort of…

John:
Either, both… both!

Tucker:
Anything? Whatever.

John:
You know, basically there were a lot of, people when they’re in short-term hook-ups sometimes with girls where it was like “in reality if I was sober on a Tuesday morning I’d probably wouldn’t want to kiss them.”

Tucker:
Right.

John:
You know, and that was a sort of a metric for whether I was actually sexually attracted to someone. Like, Tuesday morning…

Tucker:
Like sober on a weekday.

John:
That’s right.

Tucker:
That’s not bad.

John:
And you know, I was very up and down in college. I would be on top of the world then I’d be sort of like…

Tucker:
With women?

John:
Just overall. And I studied evolutionary psychology and you know, realized that mind-brain behavior – we’re evolved creatures, we’re animals and to understand what could make you happy, what could make you successful with women, or stronger – how to eat or diet, exercise – we should look at our ancestral path, look at our time in Africa as hunter-gatherers and that could start to inform how you understand human nature. And then if you have a problem, how you could go about solving. So, on the diet side that lead me to Paleo and that was a huge improvement for me. Then it also helped me understand issues with women. So there’s a relationship I had in college, I somehow ended up going out with this quite attractive girl on campus. And I didn’t really know how I did it, like the way I didn’t care about it, I wasn’t trying to get her, which I realized in retrospect…

Tucker:
Which of course, is exactly what helped you right now.

John:
Right, exactly I was like I wasn’t even into her at the beginning but then I became so emotionally attached, really fast, I became needy and I realized in retrospect that every time at an important moment in that relationship, where I had a decision, I acted feminine.

Tucker:
So what do you mean, feminine or emasculated or…

John:
Both.

Tucker:
Both? So what do you mean?

John:
First of all, in, during sex, I was explicitly told to be stronger and more forceful.

Tucker:
By her?

John:
By her. She said “fuck me harder.”

Tucker:
Right.

John:
Right. Like I kind of got it, like the rhythm increase at that moment I’m not a complete idiot but I just didn’t get that a lot of women, totally attractive women, liked men to be totally aggressive in bed.

Tucker:
So what it does, what exactly, caused this is like that sort of thing where most people are like ok, they wanted more masculine and they assume like they know what that means. I think a lot of young guys don’t know what that means. Like what exactly do you mean more masculine in bed?

John:
So first of all, whatever you do, do it confidently. Like there’s no like perfect position or perfect order that you have to follow or script that is right or wrong. Like if you’re really into something, do it with confidence and a lot of women like it when a man just like asserts what position is next.

Tucker:
So like, “turn over, get on your hands and knees, I’m gonna fuck you from behind.”

John:
Yeah, turn over. And it almost doesn’t matter what is, it’s how you do it. Something very simple: tugging on a girl’s hair. Like most women, like you know if you’re already to that point, most women like it. And you can just sort of start with that..

Tucker:
And the ones who don’t, are gonna tell you pretty quick “don’t pull my hair.”

John:
Right.

Tucker:
Ok, no big deal.

John:
Right, fine. But if a lot of women, you know, you do a little bit of gentle tug, you’re not like pull on a few strands because you’re gonna like pull out their hair more.

Tucker:
You got to pull in and grab them like reigns on a horse.

John:
That’s right. And most women, like if they’re actually into you, will respond very favorably to that. Smack them on the ass, right.

Tucker:
Sure.

John:
This is, like you sort of have to own it. You can’t be ashamed of your own sexual desire. Like a lot of guys, you don’t want to, you know you meet a girl right up front and if you come across like sexually needy and like “I just wanna get into your pants.” There are situations where it works and situations where it doesn’t but like once you’re already in bed with someone, you should absolutely own your sexuality and be like “yes, I wanna do this.”

Tucker:
Kind of regardless of what it is.

John:
Regardless of what it is.

Tucker:
Your point is that there’s not a masculine position, there’s a masculine way to enter whatever positions it is you want to be in with her.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
Like you can be in the bottom and still do it in a masculine way.

John:
Sure! Yeah, yeah. Reverse cowgirl or whatever, just do it, and own it. Whatever…

Tucker:
Ok, so let’s get back to the girl. So, she asked you explicitly “fuck me harder?”

John:
Yes, but I was, it still didn’t get through. Like every time we would sleep together, it’s like lovey-dovey and gentle…

Tucker:
Light the candles and kiss for twenty minutes…

John:
Yeah, and that’s fine. Some of the times, not all the time. I still didn’t get through. It took years and years until somebody I was going out with…

Tucker:
So she eventually broke up with you?

John:
Oh yeah. She was an angel about it because I, it was really a hard break up for me. And she was very patient with me and I’ve got nothing but good things to say about her.

Tucker:
No, but I actually want to talk about something you said about her that’s super interesting. I hear this from guys all the time. Like they’ll be into a girl, exactly what you’ve described. Beautiful girl, a girl I think in a lot of guys, they sort of subtext is that the girl is too good for me. Or that she’s out of my league or they think that, regardless of whether she is or not. And then as soon as anything happens in the relationship, they become very, I think you’re right, they become very feminine, how they react in front of her.

John:
I cried in front of her. I mean..

Tucker:
So crying by itself is not that bad but like inappropriately a lot or what?

John:
Well, I mean, basically as the break up started like I was, I became emotionally addicted to her.

Tucker:
Right.

John:
And as the breakup was actually going on, rather than being like “you know what, I’m gonna step away a little bit, if we’re not quite feeling it, that’s fine.” That probably would have made her like me more. No doubt.

Tucker:
Of course, no doubt.

John:
Yeah but I got more invested, more clingy, I needed to see her more, I was making more demands and then I would cry in front of her. I would try to talk her in to, I would like logically explain…

Tucker:
Why she has to be attracted.

John:
Right, why it made sense. I mean I was so stupid.

Tucker:
Dude, I’ve done the same thing. (laughing) No, no hold that. I laughed not at you, but laugh remembering the times I have done the exact same pathetic stupid thing. No doubt. Why do you think you were doing that?

John:
I never, I was never taught, I was never given inside tips, I was never taught how to act around women. I’m not gonna go too much into family stuff, but my father is a successful charismatic entrepreneur and a very chivalrous man. I was taught by my grandparents, aunts, uncles, entire family straight up chivalry. What I didn’t see was the fact that my father, my father and mother have a very wonderful relationship. But my father was also a huge risk-taker, extremely confident, charming, charismatic, and so…

Tucker:
Probably pretty masculine?

John:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Tucker:
So like masculine in what ways?

John:
Well, you know a risk-taker, starting enterprises that other CEOs of companies would be like, “I couldn’t believe you pulled this off.”

Tucker:
Very assertive?

John:
Assertive, yeah, you know I would get embarrassed by it and then in retrospect, I would get embarrassed by the fact that we’d be driving to some event that he was speaking at and he would change his pants in the parking lot. Be like take off his pants, put on another pair and I’d be like “oh my god dad, I can’t believe you’re doing this.” Whatever, he was a baller, like he didn’t care. You know he’d go to McDonald’s and he’d ask the person to make his fries extra crispy and I’d be like embarrassed. That’s how he wants his fries, he’s paying for it, he’s allowed.

Tucker:
And he can always say no and he decide not to order them.

John:
That’s right.

Tucker:
He’s asking the world for what he wants.

John:
He was and he was unapologetic about that. It’s not wrong to want you fries to be a bit crispy.

Tucker:
Why do you think you didn’t learn that but you did learn the…he also on the other hand was very chivalrous, so very polite with his assertiveness right?

John:
He could be overbearing, he could actually be overbearing but it was, what I realized, it’s sort of part and parcel of risk-taking and confidence: is that sometimes you do overstep, there are actually people whose toes..

Tucker:
Right, but he taught you to be chivalrous.

John:
He taught me to be chivalrous, but I didn’t… so the words that I got from everyone around me were straight up like 1950’s, pull the chair out for the women, hold the door or always pay. But at the same time, my father was also taking risks, he was good at teasing my mother.

Tucker:
He didn’t really teach that.

John:
He didn’t teach that. I could have seen it.

Tucker:
Right. You listened to what people were telling you instead more of watching what he was doing.

John:
That’s right.

Tucker:
There was a disconnect.

John:
There was a disconnect.

Tucker:
Which by the way, no one has ever accused me of being chivalrous but I almost always pay when I was out with women, I open doors, pull out chairs. It’s funny no one ever accused me of being chivalrous or being like having a lack of assertiveness or dominance. You can do both easily, you can easily be very chivalrous and polite and also be assertive and masculine.

John:
It’s about, you know some people are pretty familiar with the terms alpha and beta these days and the problem that I have with this is that so many, in like the pick-up world, like alpha equals good and beta equals bad. And not everybody says this but it depends on what you want. I mean anything long termed needs a balance these traits. Beta does not equal bad, it’s a you know if you are father, right…

Tucker:
You better care.

John:
Right, yeah you better care. You better be around, and you in many ways have to submit to the needs of the situation.

Tucker:
I mean that’s responsibility. That’s a defining trait of, in my mind, the defining trait of a great sort of man. Are you responsible for the things you take on? Whether it’s a girlfriend, a child, a dog, a business.

John:
A plant. Baby steps.

Tucker:
Are you actually responsible? Are you responsible for this sort of things. I know, totally totally agree.

John:
And a lot of guys in this country are way over on the too Beta side. They need to add Alpha. I mean, you, you’ve got no problem with that.

Tucker:
Right, I go the other way. I’ve got the other problem.

John:
Right. But in both cases it’s finding the right balance.

Tucker:
So you’re a good example of guys who went too far on the Beta side, right? Why do you think guys do that? Why do you think you do that? Is it because you were taught to be chivalrous? What else?

John:
Boy, that’s a good, I mean it’s a…

Tucker:
You talked about this the other day. You thought the educational system you went through emasculated you in a lot of ways. Very subtly, and very sort of…

John:
Yes, the educational system has become feminized. You’re sitting in your desk all day long; physical activity, recess and sports have declined in importance.

Tucker:
Or been pushed out.

John:
That’s right.

Tucker:
Because of you injuries or people being of afraid of competition or whatever.

John:
Boys these days you know they’re given ADHD, 20 percent of boys are diagnosed with ADHD by the time they reached high school and I think about two-thirds or three-quartrts of them are actually put on medication. And it’s basically, this is insane, absolutely insane, and it’s basically for a lot of these guys, boys they don’t wanna sit still. They wanna go wrestle, they wanna go climb trees.

Tucker:
Because they’re children.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
You would never tell a puppy to calm down.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
It’s a fucking puppy. That’s what puppies do.

John:
Right. That’s what it does. So that infuriates me and you know boys these days, they make the shape of a gun with their fingers, they get sent to the office or detention. Things that are absolutely biologically normal interests for human boys are becoming pathologized in our school system. And then in college too. You know, you immediately in our first week of orientation, everybody gets sat down and they get a lecture that basically assumes that every single male is a sexual predator. Guilty until proven innocent.

Tucker:
Right of course. So how did this impact your behaviour? Because we, I think a lot of guys understand, if not consciously then unconsciously, that a lot of things in society are stacked against them or aim to, if not exactly against them, aim to sort of suppress or oppress their natural desires, right? So how did specifically those things, how did they impact your behaviour?

John:
Apologizing for myself. I mean people, you don’t realize how often people say I’m sorry each day. I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Getting nervous to say certain things like not asserting myself with women. Lacking confidence on the approach.

Tucker:
Right.

John:
Not being as forceful in bed or not even conceiving that bed is an option and not caring about my health as much. Just not realizing that part of being a man means physical labor, exertion. And in college – I played tons of sports in high school, you know – in college I wasn’t, I played a year of Ultimate Frisbee but then became less active. And after college, sports which had become, which had been a primary interest for most guys, what, fantasy football? Is that the alternative?

Tucker:
I know.

John:
A digital fantasy becomes your masculine outlet.

Tucker:
Dude, I won’t even play fantasy football. I love football, I played football, I watch football but to me fantasy football is like, you know my boy, a lot of my friends talk about, one of my good good best friends is Matt Berry who’s like “the fantasy football king,” right. And I was joking to him about this. I’m like, “you know you’re actually not a GM, right? You’re not really trading players. You better spend your time jacking off into a sock cause at least then you’ve accomplished something. You’ve literally done nothing and you spend all this time and energy.

John:
Well, the reason why I avoided it isn’t because I think it’s unenjoyable, I mean I think it would be extremely enjoyable, like video games. Midway through college, I pulled back on video games not because I don’t like it but because I like it so much.

Tucker:
Too much? Why do you think that was?

John:
I am a hero. It’s being a hero.

Tucker:
You get short-term goals that you can accomplish in ways that makes sense to you. What are the dominant genres of video games: world building and first person shooter.

John:
Right. Building civilizations.

Tucker:
Or attacking enemies, overcoming obstacles.

John:
Sure!

Tucker:
Like these are the two things that are, like these are video games you know. Like dude, I thought about that for long and I really don’t think that the popularity of video games is due to the fact that men especially don’t have other socially acceptable outlets to succeed, to risk and fail, things like that.

John:
Sure.

Tucker:
Let’s get back to the girl though because this is a super interesting conversation. And that you’re way more open about this than most people I think. So she breaks up with you and you cried in front of her because of it?

John:
I cried in front of her, I…

Tucker:
Tried to convince to…

John:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And of course you can, I bet, looking back you can see the disgust on her face.

John:
Oh yeah, she was just becoming by the second was becoming less interested in me. I became very jealous of an ex boyfriend who came to town on and like needed signs of affections. You know at one point, like I very, in a sort of a roundabout way, drop the fact that like I was having suicidal thoughts even though I wasn’t, simply to get an emotional reaction out of her. And it didn’t matter, what killed me was when she didn’t have an emotional reaction, when I got nothing. If she hated me or loved me…

Tucker:
It’s a reaction.

John:
Yes, and I needed to sort of reverse that. I needed to be on an even keel and sort of not care.

Tucker:
I don’t know if “not care” is the right thing because you’re in a relationship though, you care about.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
Or it’s not that you can’t care. I think maybe, well tell me what you think about this. I think it’s more, because I had been in an exact situation like this with girls, right. I think it’s more you have to learn how to respect yourself enough and respect her enough to understand, “alright you know what, sometimes you we don’t like other people or things don’t work. And if she doesn’t like me, that hurts and it sucks but it doesn’t necessarily mean anything bad about me. It doesn’t mean my world’s gonna collapse, you know and that I’m going to, I have enough respect for myself to not think that her affection for me defines who I am.”

John:
And, I thought I could change her, right. You can’t change other people. You can change yourself but you can’t change other people.

Tucker:
Right.

John:
Or you can’t change other people directly.

Tucker:
So how did you move on? She just basically cut ties and you just had to?

John:
Yeah. So, you know in college we live in close proximity and so it was actually hard to cut ties but she moved one, I eventually moved on. But it took me years to get over that and you know. Then there’s like bitterness and you don’t understand quite what happened, and how to deal with it in the future. But this actually kicked off my health journey in going to Paleo because I realized during the breakup that if I got more than, if I got fewer than 8 hours of sleep and was hungover, eating poorly, it felt like the world was coming to an end. If I got enough sleep, I exercise and hadn’t been drinking, I was sad but I was like, ok.

Tucker:
Right. It sucked but you can handle it.

John:
That’s right. And it just blew my mind that what I had eaten and how much sleep I had gotten fundamentally changed my view on an important relationship. I was like “holy cow,” like my mind, my spirit doesn’t just flow above my body divorced from these mundane concerns. I’m flesh and blood and if I don’t get enough sleep it changes my view on the world. So years later that, a couple of years later, that motivated me to go Paleo. To observe, “ok if my body can bring me down, I can also bring up my mind and attitude by making myself healthy.”

Tucker:
So let’s talk about Paleo a little bit now. I wanna, obviously you’ve talked about this stuff a lot, and you’re a big leader in this space, instead of talking about Paleo from the perspective of Paleo…

John:
Right.

Tucker:
…You know, I’ve been Paleo for almost a decade, I’m totally on board. Let’s talk about it from the other perspective which is what are your goals as a young guy. Do you wanna get girls, that’s your goal? What do you need to do and what are ways you can do it that kind of fit into sort of Paleo, sort of like world view. So you’re talking like health, fitness, diet, these sorts of things so like pretend I’m you know, Franky Fratpants. Like I’m just a fucking idiot 22-year old, I’m you in college, except dumb. Which was me. And so what do you, “I don’t care about Paleo dude but I care about women. I care about getting ass, so what does your book have to do with me?”

John:
Well, the most important thing for a guy isn’t directly the physical stuff. How you look, whether you have six pack abs or not and all that stuff, it’s your confidence. It’s your attitude and your confidence. But the thing is that being physically strong and healthy gives you confidence. You will walk with better posture, you will be stronger, you will be more assertive. It will, being strong and putting yourself in such situations where you’re lifting heavy weights or you’re doing martial arts. That will increase your testosterone and it will make you a different person.

Tucker:
Make you more confident.

John:
It will make you confident.

Tucker:
Make you more assertive. Yeah, exactly.

John:
So being healthy is not about six-pack abs to be a male model whatever, and if you look good. Like looking good is good, it’s better than not but the most important benefit for a lot of guys is it will make you more confident. It will change your behavior.

Tucker:
It will make you more attractive to women.

John:
That’s right, exactly. It will make you more attractive to women.

Tucker:
But all those things are more attractive. Like a woman, all things being equal, a woman is gonna find a guy who, exactly what you said, has positive body language, walks well. Looks like, he doesn’t want to be a body builder, you’re not a fucking body builder but it’s clear that you’re not a weakling either. You’re not some dude who just sits around and reads book and can’t do a push up right. You can do something.

John:
And you should be strong enough so that in the bedroom you can pick up a woman, turn her over. You know like if you’re not strong enough to do that, that’s a problem. But also, clear skin. I mean skin quality is a huge measure of…so many guys go through high school and college and even beyond with terrible acne.

Tucker:
Right. And then they wonder why girls don’t wanna kiss me.

John:
Right. And it impacts their own confidence. I mean that is probably the clearest way of where being physically unhealthy undermines your own confidence.

Tucker:
Yeah.

John:
And I used to think that having acne was a rite of passage that everybody went through it, that it was biologically normal.

Tucker:
Let’s actually talk about acne because tons of dudes have problems with that.

John:
Yeah right.

Tucker:
And I think Paleo has very clear views and prescriptions that I think usually work. So like what do you think about, like if I’m 22 and I’ve got acne, talk to me. What do I need to know?

John:
Well first of all when you look at hunter gatherers and indigenous people around the world, they don’t have acne. You know, why would evolution ever design a process where right when you’re heading sexual maturation, you’re gonna have scarring on your face? Which is the primary way that people…

Tucker:
Evaluate you, I suppose.

John:
Yes, right evaluate you of course. So it makes no evolutionary biological sense. It’s biologically abnormal. So first of all, just like tons of sugar and processed food is implicated in acne, you know it feeds unhealthy types of bacteria in your body and on your face. And then there’s some evidence that suggested dairy, I know that in my like consumption, if I have too much dairy it causes acne.

Tucker:
And caffeine too is a big one.

John:
Caffeine?

Tucker:
Yeah, especially for younger people so like chocolate, coffee, diet coke, that kind of stuff.

John:
Monster…

Tucker:
Yeah, so Monster energy drink pitched to 19-year old guys right, full of sugar, full of caffeine and it..

John:
Yeah, drives me nuts.

Tucker:
The two biggest factors for acne.

John:
I would love to see for more skateboarders, BMX guys, MMA guys ditch those endorsement contracts with Mountain Dew and drink water or something different.

Tucker:
Yeah, yeah anything. Coconut water even.

John:
Yeah, so acne is one of those, you know, you cut out processed foods, you cut out caffeine, you cut out dairy and my skin improved a ton. People would be “oh your skin is glowing.” I had multiple male friends say to me, straight male friends, unprovoked and be like “dude your skin looks great.” And I’m like really “I must look great for you to have…”

Tucker:
That’s when you started eating Paleo right?

John:
Yeah, and I was frustrated because I was 23-years old, I was in a corporate work environment. And when I was stressed out I would get this zit on my nose in the exact same spot every time with such regularity that my boss knew how stressed out I was based on whether this fucking zit was on my nose. How pathetic is that?

Tucker:
Is it a man or a woman?

John:
It’s a man.

Tucker:
Oh, that’s awesome.

John:
My male ancestors are rolling over in their graves and I’m like this Dilbert character who gets a pimple on the same spot on his nose…

Tucker:
Every time you’re stressed.

John:
“I’m stressed out…”

Tucker:
“Oh, we gave John too much work this week, he’s got a fucking zit on his nose.”

John:
Yeah, so…

Tucker:
So you don’t get any acne though obviously…

John:
Yeah, no.

Tucker:
Of course, me neither. So it’s just a matter, so if I’m like a 22-year old dude, like this seems complicated. What do I really need to do? No sugar? There’s little sugar as possible?

John:
Right, so I call them industrial foods. Types of food that didn’t exist before the Industrial Revolution and over the last couple of hundred years so sugar, and Twinkies, and frozen pizza, and Mountain Dew and all that sort of stuffs. What most people call processed food.

Tucker:
Yeah, it is.

John:
So we’ve only been eating those types of food for about 4 or 5 generations, not nearly long enough for humans to adapt to them. The second category are agricultural foods. Primarily grains and dairy which we’ve only been eating for about 10,000 years since the Agricultural Revolution, that’s only about 400 generations, it may sound like a lot but on an evolutionary timescale that’s nothing. And so when most people go Paleo, they get rid of wheat, corn, soy, beans, rice, some white rice a lot of people leave in there. And then on the dairy side of things, they’re not drinking skimmed milk, whatever. They get rid of cheese and you know any type of dairy. Though some people after a period of time will add back in certain types of full fat dairy.

Tucker:
Right, fermented stuffs you know, butter, yogurt, Greek yogurt especially because there’s no sugar added. So stuffs like that and basically just stops drinking normal milk like from the store.

John:
Right. Normal milk is sugar water with some weird proteins in it that a lot of people have digestive problems with. So that’s the gist of it and when people are thinking about doing this, I don’t care whether they used the word Paleo, I don’t care…

Tucker:
It’s about the results.

John:
Yeah. It’s about the results and I don’t care whether you do this for the rest of life. If you have a specific problem, this is a smart method to try and a good place to start. Do it for 30 days, evaluate your results and then change it however you fucking see fit. And then name it whatever you want, don’t give it a name, I don’t care.

Tucker:
So let me ask you if you think this statement’s correct. From what I know about you, it seems like you didn’t actually do a whole lot to learn how to get better with women. I mean, you’re very successful now, but you actually didn’t do a whole lot directly to get women. What you did was you changed your life. You ate better, worked out better, you did all these sort of things that made yourself a better man and as a result, you got better with women. Is that right?

John:
Actually it’s both. You know, there are good things and bad things about like the pick-up world. But I read a bunch of those blogs and there are some, like one tip that I picked up which was very useful to me was in when I would go out. First off when I would ask out a girl, usually I don’t ask anymore. I’ll find a way to say “hey, give me your number,” or “well let’s go out some time.” Not “would you like to go out?” because then they say yes or no. I don’t ask Yes or No questions, I say “why don’t we do this” and then they say “oh that sounds fun.” And that’s what just, you know that’s not manipulative, I’m realizing I’m gonna be a more assertive person.

Tucker:
Right, because women can just say no.

John:
They can just say no, it’s ok no big deal.

Tucker:
Very easy. I’m not into some people, she’s not into me. It happens.

John:
Right. And another thing I changed is I used to have this long, like first time I would go out with someone before, I’d be picking a place, bar, restaurant or whatever. And have this long text exchanges with them where I would be like “what neighbourhood are you in,” or “what day of the week is really good,” “is there a good time” you know “do you like sushi or a type of cuisine?” And I kept on looking to the woman to make the decision. And I thought, I interpreted it in my head as I’m being polite, I’m taking her considerations into account. But what I realized was that a lot of women view that as: this guy is not assertive and like I don’t, when you’re going out with someone, where you go is secondary. You’re going out with someone because you know you’re like sexually or emotionally, whatever, interested…

Tucker:
Attracted to them, you wanna see where it goes. Of course

John:
Right. It’s not because you both have this amazing interest in sushi.

Tucker:
Well, you’re not food critics.

John:
Right. So when I changed my behavior in that instance to where I would suggest something, I would say you know “Thursday, 8:30, this bar. How about that? Does that work?” Women are adults they can say “no, that doesn’t work. How about 7:30 or how about a different location?” I mean in New York, I’ll find out what neighbourhood they live in so I can pick something like roughly…

Tucker:
That is convenient, right.

John:
That’s roughly convenient but that’s about it. And then I’ll just suggest something and if that doesn’t work they can suggest something else.

Tucker:
Here’s actually a super important point I want to make because you just made it but I want to make it explicit coz I think a lot of guys don’t understands this. There is a huge difference; a lot of guys think that being polite or being sort of a nice guy means being totally deferential to women. I actually think that’s disrespectful to women because you’re infantilizing them in a way you’re treating them like they can’t, not that they can’t make their own decisions but there have to be like…every consideration has to be taken into account ahead of time before any decision is made. When you do exactly what you just said, exactly you’re treating them like adults who can make their own decisions and handle their own affairs.

John:
Right and you’re giving them something that they like. You know if somebody wants that sort of deferential consideration and they like that then you’re giving them what they like. If women don’t like that, you are not respectful and polite. You are giving them something that they don’t want and don’t like. Most women like a guy with backbone. There is no woman who is going to say, “Oh I love a guy with a you know”.

Tucker:
Who’s a pussy, right?

John:
Right

Tucker:
I know there aren’t many but there are definitely women who like men that they can control. Here is the thing with that ok fine if that is what she wants then if you’re not like that then you need to send that signal early so you two know not to go out.

John:
Right, but I guarantee you. Nine times out of ten with those women, they lose sexual attraction with those guys. Even though they say that’s what they want, they still want Tom Brady to come in and you know. We’ll see.

Tucker:
See now that discussion is veering into “let me tell you what women want”. As a guy who’s been with a lot of women and dealt with a lot of women, anytime anyone says “Women want X” I’m always like you know it depends. There are certain universals: obviously women want healthy men, women want men they are attracted to then you can start dividing that up. What does attractive mean, there are always factors and as you go further down you are less and less the same as less and less probably apply.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
In general if you pursue or approach women with a mindset that woman like assertive, confident men who will take charge but still consider me and think about me and care about what I think, you’re going to be right 90% of the time.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
What do you think, you leave in New York for quite a while right? You have been pretty successful with women. What mistakes do you see guys making that just you’re like, “What are you doing?” What are some of the really big ones that you see all these guys making that you’re just like so quickly “this is so wrong”.

John:
One thing is guys who think that there has to be the exact right moment to kiss a girl. We were talking about this before, you said “There can be wrong moments but there is never the exact right moment”. You create the moment through your own presence will confidence.

Tucker:
Mutual attraction.

John:
Right. You know I’ve known guys in New York who they’re going out with the third, fourth time with the same woman and are still waiting for the right moment to kiss. That is not common that is more of an extreme example. This is men with jobs. I’ve said you know there’s not going to be, if the right moment hasn’t happen you’re not going like it’s not like the heavens are going to open up, not like a scene from a movie.

Tucker:
Here’s a question I want to ask you about this because we’ll get back to what are the guys doing wrong thing. You actually nailed on something else, a point that a lot of guys ask especially young guys. How do I know if girls are in to me because most of young guys tend to be really stupid in almost always. I know I was a huge idiot right, I can’t tell you how many times as a young guy girls were sending signals to me that they were either very attracted or very unattracted to me and I misread both. What are some things that women do that women think are supper obvious that guys miss that could really help guys?

John:
Any type of physical contact even if it’s minor, if she touches your hand, if you touch her hand and she’s ok with it or whatever, that’s a great indicator. Sometimes – people flake a lot these days, particularly in New York. Everybody has multiple balls in the air and changing plans and things like that. If you have plans with a woman and she changes plans, sometimes it’s hard, it’s like “is she in to me, is she flaking on me or is this the end?” If she suggests in any way at all an alternative time or place, she’s in to you. Sometimes there will be like “ah, it didn’t work” and they won’t suggest anything else. That doesn’t mean you can’t still salvage that or whatever but like if she does suggest…

Tucker:
Her interest level is almost certainly far less than the girl who is like, “We can’t do Sunday what about Tuesday?”

John:
There’s sort of softness, like laughter, if you are making a girl laugh regularly it is really hard for women not to be attracted to someone that is making them laugh.

Tucker:
What are the evolutionary reasons for that actually? I know you know what they are. It’s pretty interesting, what do you think humor; cause humor is unquestionably, that’s always 1, 2 or 3 for almost any woman with a list in attractiveness.

John:
Humor is an indication of intelligence. There are very few stand-up comics who are dumb, you don’t find dumb, it’s almost impossible. I don’t think it’s a surprise that guys like Rogan or Bill Burr have really fascinating podcasts as stand up comedians. You got to be smart to see the humor in those entire situations; it’s an indication that you’re smart.

Tucker:
It also means that there is no mental illness. The first thing to go when you have any sort of mental issue is humor. A good indication of lack of sociopathology or psychology or psychopathology is humor because if you can’t have empathy or if you don’t have empathy, it’s really hard to make jokes. Obviously if you’re smart or funny you’re not just smart, you’re also very socially intelligent. You have to understand, humor really is about transgression; to figure out what’s acceptable what’s not acceptable, where can I transgress in a way that’s appropriate.

John:
Transgressions also show, like there was a study that came out that women were attracted to men who are a little bit politically incorrect. It showed if you are little bit politically incorrect in the right sort of way with women it’s like “oh he is strong enough to think that he can go against the rules in that situation and get away with it.” But with humor is oftenn very transgressive and you’re saying things that other people will be too nervous to say or point out.

Tucker:
I have a friend from Poland in College and when he got to America he thought we wouldn’t have comedy here. I was like “why would you think that?” He’s like “comedy is how you criticize the government, the only way that you can criticize the government that’s allowed” and he is like “you guys have a government in America that works, I didn’t think you’d be criticizing it.” It’s like “No dude, we’re better than the Polish but we’re totally fucked up.” So, clear signs that she is attracted, she is touching you or cool with you touching her, she’s either making plans or suggesting alternates or in to whatever you suggest and if she’s responsive to even stupid jokes. It’s true man, if a girl is in to me I can make really stupid jokes and she will still laugh.

John:
I love finding the sort of like the beautiful woman in the room who’s the biggest dork in the world. As soon as I find that dork…

Tucker:
Those are the easiest girls, the easiest coz they’re so deeply insecure and usually…

John:
I don’t even think it’s insecure, I mean like cute dork.

Tucker:
I was thinking ugly duckling, those girls are so easy to deal with. Usually actually great people because

John:
They develop a personality.

Tucker:
Exactly and then they got hot. Whereas girls who were hot from the beginning a lot of times, they either don’t have a develop personality or they can be very bitchy or very entitled.

John:
Here’s how I think about that actually. Power corrupts, any source of power could be political power, it could be the power of violence, any type of money that can corrupt and beauty is a form of power. If a man is born with a huge trust fund or not even trust fund just an inheritance and has that from a very young age that can completely corrupt that guy. You can be a total douche bag and spoiled and have a bratty attitude. That’s kind of being born completely beautiful; people are deferential to you all the time.

Tucker:
World is different for beautiful girls.

John:
Yes, completely different.

Tucker:
I’ve dated some stunningly beautiful girls and I’ll be with them and I’m like “what the fuck” like there are girl

John:
It’s like a CEO who thinks his jokes are funny, because his employees laugh at whatever he says.

Tucker:
I’ve known beautiful women who like didn’t know how much drinks cost; they’d never paid for them. Like they weren’t like manipulative gold diggers, these were really nice girls and they are like “oh I didn’t know beers cost $5” you know and I’m like “What world do you live in? Oh right you’re stunningly hot.”

John:
Right, every other drink for free.

Tucker:
So you live in New York, you’re doing really well. Another thing I hear from a lot of guys that I think you actually probably would offer a lot of input on; where do you met women? So if you’re dude X, you I know have some sort of like pretty cool thing to do. What’s a good way for a young guy in a big city who doesn’t maybe have a huge group of social network, what do you do?

John:
First of all, I almost never am out at clubs that’s just not my scene. The whole growth, the early days of the pickup stuffs and clubs, like, that’s not my world. I’ve ended up, I have something with public transportation, I’ve dated or gone out with three women that I’ve met on the subway.

Tucker:
It takes a lot of courage to approach a random stranger on a subway and like ask them out, that’s not easy. What do you do?

John:
The first time it happened I saw a girl that I was attracted to, dressed stylishly, like physically she checked all the boxes for me. We both get on the L train, she sits down next to someone else and closes her eyes and goes to sleep. And so I’ve got a couple stops, you know, going to Brooklyn and I’m like “I hope she gets over the same stop so I can ask her out” coz I’m not going to go over and tap her on the shoulder and be like “wake up.”

Tucker:
That would be amazing. If you could do that I’d be like “alright man, you win. That’s incredible.”

John:
So my stop at Bedford Ave comes and I get off the train and I was like well she didn’t open her eyes so I’m gonna go and met a friend for dinner. I got off the platform, I was on the platform off of the train and I thought, you know what, my brother met his wife on a bus so I thought you know what I’m just going back there and ask her out and I’m not gonna turn tuck tail. So I go back on, the next stop comes, she still doesn’t open her eyes and I’m like this is creepy, now I’m real stalker. But each stop that it happens, yes I feel more and more creepy but at the same time I don’t want to turn back. I’ve come this far, I have to see this through. Eventually she opens her eyes, gets off the train, I say excuse me. I was actually more polite in this situation than I would have been in maybe others.

Tucker:
Because you stared at her while she was sleeping for an hour.

John:
Not an hour!

Tucker:
You should be polite.

John:
There weren’t, there were few people around but there weren’t tons of people, I didn’t want to like freak her out or anything like that. I said “would you like to have a drink sometime?” and she pause, looked me up and down and she’s like “ok, how about right now?” and I said “no I can’t, I have to go meet someone for dinner.”

Tucker:
That’s awesome! You asked her out then pushed her off. Good job!

John:
She’s from South America, we had a wonderful sort of 4 day romance. We’re still friends now even though we’re on different continents. Someone else that I dated for a few months, I could tell that she was looking at me on the train so I went over and started talking to her. And then someone else I shouted at across the platform, she was across the platform.

Tucker:
“Hey hottie, come over here”, was it something like that?

John:
I said “hey” and she didn’t look up and I said “hey” again. She had a pink phone and I said “hey, pink phone” she looked up and I said, “are you single?” and she was so embarrassed she just started laughing, she didn’t even respond. This is like…

Tucker:
That sort of those things like if you’re gonna go, go big. Fuck it.

John:
That’s right. This was a go big. My train was coming, I saw the sign it said you know 2 minutes or 1 minute or something like that. She starts laughing before she can say no, I ran at her like I go up the stairs and come up on the other side and she’s laughing. I was like “you want to go out sometime?” and she’s now like sort of like nervous and embarrassed and she was like “actually, I’m seeing someone.” I said “ok, well here, take my number in case that changes” and she took my number. We texted once or twice that night, she was like “that really made my day, it was sweet.”

Tucker:
Of course, obviously, the attention.

John:
Didn’t hear anything for seven months. Seven months later I get a text message from “Girl With Pink Phone In Subway”. She’s like “hey, I don’t know if you remember this blah blah blah blah, do you want us to get that drink?” so I was like “yeah, sure”. We went out for a little while.

Tucker:
That’s a great story dude. That’s great. A question I get I think that feeds in the exact term is guys always ask like what do you say, how do you talk to them or more importantly the better question is, how do you have the courage to do that without being afraid of being rejected or whatever? And I’m like a lot of times talking about the mental process but then I realize my mental process is different than theirs because I am a confident, assertive guy who has done shit in life. And so if you’re not that, if you’re the 22 year with acne who’s out of shape and kind of a schlub, there is no way you can. I guess you can convince yourself that you have the confidence to do that whatever and even go do it but do you think – coz that’s something you would never have done in college right So what came firs,t the confidence and then the confidence to go do all this things then you went did them – change your health, change your diet, and change your workout – the confidence that become a man like a confident, accomplished man and then you went out and talk to women, or did you do this stuff first and that gave you the confidence to yell at women like on the platform to get their number?

John:
It was both; I just sort of bootstrapped my way. Yes I was getting healthier and I started to ask women out more and, you know, then I bought a leather jacket that made me feel cool and give me more confidence but then once I had successfully gone out with one woman on the subway, you know it was less scary.

Tucker:
It’s easy to do it, get rid of the fear.

John:
It’s sort of like roller coasters. The first time most people go on a roller coaster they’re scared shitless and you learn that you have to basically lean in to the feeling and enjoy it. I consciously had to make a decision being like whatever I’m going to feel on this I am going to like that feeling and that sort of …

Tucker:
Coz it’s both exhilarating and terrifying, a roller coaster for example.

John:
And same with being on TV when I was on Colbert.

Tucker:
Right, that’s no joke. Colbert he comes at people.

John:
He is known as one of the hardest interviews on TV and so they put me out in a hot seat for about 2 minutes to get used to the lights before we started and huge like adrenaline flowing through my body, very nervous. This was like the biggest moment of my career to date and so yes, I was thinking about the lroller coaster, I was like “whatever I’m feeling right now I have to enjoy this feeling.” I said to myself “I like how I feel right now, I feel good.” The other thing I did was I imagine that I got into a fight with him, with Colbert, and beat him up. I was just like, you know, what I’m in a fight or flight moment and I’m not going to flee and I can’t actually fight him. So in my head I actually got into a fight with him and beat him up and I was like, maybe I get the feeling. If you do be another man in a physical altercation you got a huge rush.

Tucker:
Oh I know, I started doing MMA, not just beating but also learning how to lose. That’s a different conversation, but totally, yeah.

John:
And I said “I’m going to embrace the feeling that I have after victory, I’m going to be confident and relaxed and feel really good” and I just tried to take that attitude. Try to visualize that. You know lots of athletes will visualize success, you know Kurt Gibson hitting that home run in the world series, he’s like “I just watched it going to the stands before it went in to the stands.”

Tucker:
That’s actually; I never thought about that coz I’ve done tons of meeting interviews and whatever too. I have never been Colbert but when my second book came out, they tentatively booked me. I actually got nervous coz I’m like I’m good with media, I’m good with people but I’m like this dude is really good. He is probably the best, arguably the best interviewer out there and he’s confrontational without being aggressive, his genius.

John:
And fast, he’ss really fast.

Tucker:
So quick, so quick. He is so good and I was like this is the guy who could easily punk me in media if I don’t have my shit together when I go on.

John:
And he takes in to direction, an uncertain direction coz most interviews you just kind of know what territories going to be covered.

Tucker:
I guess it works coz you did great on the interview.

John:
Yeah people said, “you look so relax and confident I can’t believe that was your first time on TV”.

Tucker:
I saw that, I was like “man, this dude.” I thought for sure that you either done training before hand or whatever, I was like “man.” some people’s just, that’s actually really good. I learned something from this.

John:
You mean you didn’t learn anything before that?

Tucker:
We already know, this is more about informing the listeners. I’ve read your stuff and I know and we have been talking about this for days. So here is actually another thing I want to talk about meeting women because a lot of guys think that you have to like go to a place to meet women like you have to go to a bar or you have to go to a club or even like on a subway. There is an inherent fear or an initiating contact with a stranger that I think for a lot of guys that is just too far of a leak for them from where they are and I get that. So in the answer room what I tell guys is find out what you’re interested in, if you don’t know. You should know I hope but whatever you’re interested in there are women who like that to go to groups or meetings or whatever where those women are. You have ton of experience of this you started the biggest paleo meet up group and cross fit meet up group right.

John:
Barefoot running, but I have been at Crossfit NYC since 2007.

Tucker:
Exactly, so how many great women have you met through just those 3 things?

John:
Tons, more than I have time to go out with.

Tucker:
For 22 year old dude who’s just moved to New York, how does that even happen, what do you do, like how does that work?

John:
You need to find what you’re interest are, above and beyond Dungeons and Dragons, and pursue them. Not only will you meet women who have similar interest as you but even when you, you don’t want to throw those interests away when you meet women who might not share them. One of the women I dated who, we did meet on the subway, we started very fast and about 2 weeks into it we’re walking down the street and she is the cutest can be, from the Caribbean, 19, a very very sweet girl. She looks over and bats her eyes at me while we were walking down the street and says “2 years from now…” she didn’t eat paleo or even close, just a standard American diet, she goes “2 years from now if I still eat the way I eat, are we gonna be going out?.” In the cutest way, totally sweet she’s dress sexy and like I’m walking down the street with her feeling great. Most guys in that situation would be like “yeah baby, for sure” and I paused, I look over and I say “no”. She was offended.

Tucker:
She got mad?

John:
She wasn’t mad. She couldn’t believe I said that and I said hold on, I said how I eat in paleo, and being healthy is core to who I am as a man and as a person and this is something I’m going to be pursuing and involving for the rest of my life. The person who I end up with, the woman who I end up with long term is going to support the direction, is going to be going at the same direction that I’m going, like I don’t want to have to fight my mission in life.

Tucker:
I don’t want Oreos in my house basically.

John:
Right, it’s like I’m not going to try to change her but I’m going to end up with someone that supports the direction that I’m going in and I’m going to support the direction they’re going in and so that, we had amazing sex that night and she respected that.

Tucker:
Exactly, that was what I’m going to say. Even though you put her down, contradicted her, didn’t subvert yourself in your opinion to her she actually like that a lot coz you’re assertive and there was a reason behind it. It wasn’t dismissive; it wasn’t like “fuck you bitch”, it was more like “look here’s who I am here’s what I believe you can accept it or not”. That’s a sort of I think the combination of assertiveness and confidence but also sort of respect for self and woman and like, that’s almost chivalrous in a way. Is to respect someone enough to be like “I’m going to be totally honest with you and I’m going to be who I am and then you can decide which you want to do with that” if it does not fit with you or whatever.

John:
Exactly, but yeah in terms of meeting women with sort of similar interests, there are all sorts… I don’t meet women out at bars or clubs so it’s usually through extended friend groups, I’ve done a little bit of online dating here and there but sometimes I’ve like searched profiles for gluten free.

Tucker:
Because you’re the paleo dude in New York.

John:
That’s right, but then I know that there’s going to be a common interest like material where going to talk about, were not going to struggle for conversation; I never struggle for conversation anymore.

Tucker:
But you’re going to pick Korean barbeque you know like she’s going to love it.

John:
Or like dropping in at cross fit boxes I know that I’m going to get along with women there and things like that. It’s leading, being the man that you want to be within the life of things that you’re interested in pursuing it and you will then attract someone or stumbles across someone who’s going in a parallel direction.

Tucker:
I totally fundamentally agree. One last question, let’s say 22 year old dude and less than of this and he just move to New York and his like just as dicked up as you or I were at 22 and he’s like “Man, this Durant guy’s got his shit figured out, like I really like sort of what he’s doing and I want to emulate what he’s doing. Where’s a good place for a guy like that to start to understand sort of your ideas and how paleo fits in to his life and his goals?

John:
Oh I wrote a book, the Paleo Manifesto, Iy give it 5 stars on Yelp. My book came out a few months ago and it’s not just about the Palaeolithic and it’s not just about diet, it’s not a diet book.

Tucker:
If there is a very important point, I’ve read the book it’s very good and highly recommended. It’s funny, Paleo Solution which is Robb Wolf’s book which is sort of a definitive introduction to paleo diet right. I’ve given that book to tons of girls and girls love it like I told Robb, you’re responsible for at least 50 hot girls directly through me and girls becoming hot directly through me. Women love diet books because, like, they are always concern about the weight, eating and whatever, when I recommended it to guys there’s a wide range of reaction. This is not a diet book, you talk about the eating but it’s what 20% of the book is the eating kind of food.

John:
Yeah, there are 2 chapters in the middle; I don’t get in to food recommendations until the third on the way through the book.

Tucker:
What’s the book more…

John:
It’s about why, it’s about why, you know, how do we become human, you know where do we come from, where are we now, where are we going? I need big picture stuff, I need to know why stuff makes sense. Like you give me a list of food and tell me hey this is the best way to do it, I don’t believe you.

Tucker:
I don’t blame you.

John:
So the structure of the book is basically past, present and future. The past, I go on a bunch of adventures; I go to the Cleveland zoo to learn how to keep the gorillas held in captivity, you know these zoo keepers they don’t call what they do paleo. What they do is they mimic the natural habitat of the animal and use that as a way to prevent chronic health conditions. I go on that adventure, I get a tour of Harvard’s fossil archives from the head of human evolution and biology. Hundred gatherers, eighty thousand hunter gatherers with a beautiful set of teeth you know 5’11”, pretty tall. There’s a chapter on after the agricultural revolution how infectious disease exploded in a lot of religious rules, how people be healthy in that situation. I looked what we can explore from or learn from industrial era explores and pioneers, astronauts, polar explorers, people in submarines and then there is a chapter on biohackers and technology. I actually downplay the Palaeolithic relative to other books and then we get in to food and fasting and thermoregulation and movement, standing, walking, running, light, sun, sleep and then some stuff on ethics and the environment.

Tucker:
Would you say like; there’s no such thing as a comprehensive guide to sex and dating for young guys, that’s why Geoff Miller and I decided to embark on this project, but would you say you’re book is a pretty good guide for how you got to go, from where you were crying in front of your girlfriend pathetically, to where you are now, a very successful guy with a ton of confidence?

John:
Yes, it shows you the path I took and it presents this world view as a holistic lifestyle.

Tucker:
So you understand why the path works.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
Here’s what I did, here’s why it works. Then you help people understand how they can apply it to their life.

John:
Exactly.

Tucker:
I tell you what, the proof is in the pudding with you dude. There is just no doubt like if someone read your book and applied even basic principle – so much what you’re preaching on the book is exactly what we preach. You need to work out, you need to be strong, you need to eat a certain way, you need to take basic care of yourself and your health etcetera, etcetera. And then like 50% of what you’re doing along with women correct automatically if you do those things.

John:
Right. It’s so much like the pickup artist stuff is adapting the postures of an alpha male.

Tucker:
How do you fake an alpha, where as you like how do you be an alpha?

John:
To be fair to a lot of this folks they make that point too, they look ok fake it like you make it and stuff like that.

Tucker:
Why fake it unless you can just make it?

John:
Make it. This book isn’t just what to do it’s also meaning, you can have all the scientific evidence in the world you want about how to eat, how to live whatever. If it doesn’t motivate people to actually do it, if it’s not meaningful to them and their lives its nothing it means nothing at all. The US DA food pyramids are like whatever else like if everybody ignores it, which is fine, I think they should but it might as not as well exist. The trick is, how do you make a healthy lifestyle meaningful so that it doesn’t require disciple, it doesn’t require stress and guilt and all the stuff. How do you actually ingrate it into your life to make it fun and I explain cross fit. Like the brilliance of cross fit is not, ok yeah, high intensity interval training.

Tucker:
The workouts themselves are pretty basic, that’s not the brilliance.

John:
The brilliance is they turn it into a sport and sports taps in into this primal nature, competition, camaraderie, like functional goals, functional objectives, you know trial by fire types stuff that taps into deeply rooted timeless human motivations. It wasn’t about machines and the gym and stuff like that, it was about wetwear. It was about biology and how we’re programmed in human psychology and it was brilliant and that’s why there are these tribes of people that are intensely loyal.

Tucker:
Exactly, so for the point of this podcast and this audience. I think the point that I want to make sure that the listener get is that you know why guys do anything? To be honest, because of women. We want women to like us, we want to be attractive to women so that they will be in a romantic relationship with lots of short term ones or one long one, we want women.

John:
Even the guys who say “no I don’t do it for women” that position you’re usually saying so that women will be like “oh I like him because he doesn’t do it for women.”

Tucker:
I think the point, the real take away for listeners should be, even if all you care about is getting laid – well that’s very common for young guys – and even if that’s all you care about like just going and getting laid, just going and getting girls is not good enough really. It’s not going to be the optimal way to actually get girls, the optimal way to get girls is to improve yourself. Your book is very much about how to optimize yourself, how to make the best version of you possible and one of the consequences will be you’d be happy, healthy whatever. Young guys care about, you’re going to get way more girls, you’re going to be way more successful and get more girls and have better relationships and take more out of them and the women will take better more out of the relations. Both parties will be better off.

John:
It’s funny there are a lot of things in life that when you try to take them head on they recede into the distance, but if you start to go off at an angle and don’t make it you’re direct goal, it somehow becomes more achievable. If all you’re obsessed with is money, money, money, money, I got to be rich, got to be rich and got to be rich; yeah there going to be some of those people that become wealthy but like you look at some of the people with huge fortunes and they wanted excellence, they wanted to build something. They were obsessed with something valuable to others and becoming rich was a consequence; the romantic example I like to give is if you look directly at a star in the sky it becomes less bright, because your eye…

Tucker:
Acclimates to it.

John:
Yeah. Exactly. But if you look slightly off to the side then it’s much brighter and you can see it. So it’s like kind a got a take some of these things off to the side to get the underlying goal.

Tucker:
Awesome, this is great, this is fantastic. Thank you man I think there’s a lot of stuff a lot of guys are going to benefit from.

John:
Yeah, well it’s time I mean you know. A lot of men have been emasculated and the reality is a lot of women like this, they like the fact that men are learning. When I learn this stuff my relationships were better with women, they liked me better as a person and so they were like happy that I figure it out.

Tucker:
You became more masculine.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
Coz that’s more attractive, of these the women you’re with.

John:
Right.

Tucker:
Awesome man. Thank you for coming on brother.

John:
Thank you.

Tucker:
Yeah, of course.

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