BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT
10th of October 2014

Jordan Harbinger Interview

Introduction:

This week we interview Jordan Harbinger, the co-founder of the Art of Charm, a podcast (and coaching company) that helps guys be better with women. In this episode, Tucker and Jordan discuss where the PUA industry is going wrong, and the correct way to approach dating and relationships.

Podcast:


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Video:

[coming soon]

SPONSOR: This episode is sponsored by Bookhacker. They do the reading, so you don’t have to. Check them out on Amazon or Bookhacker.net.

If you want to sponsor the Mating Grounds Podcast, email [email protected].

Key takeaways:

  • The PUA industry is filled with sociopaths who exploit people. They abuse the insecurities and anxieties that guys have to suck as much money as they can from them.
  • Most of the PUA industry is focused primarily on making money and having the most profitable business possible, not on helping people.
  • The underlying fundamental message in PUA is that you’re not a real man unless you have sex with lots of girls, and that’s bullshit.
  • Sex and relationships aren’t zero-sum, you aren’t trying to ‘conquer’ someone. That’s a poisonous mindset and leads to unhealthy relationships. Women aren’t our opponents, sex and relationships are about finding things that are great for both of you.
  • It’s important to be yourself. Don’t lie or bullshit about who you are as a person.
  • The goal should be to try to remove insecurities, not to add a “layer of cool” onto your personality.
  • It seems likely that over time, the “manosphere” is eventually going to shift towards all types of relationship development.
  • There’s this idea that most guys just want to hook up, and both the empirical studies and observation show that this is not true – most guys just want to have great relationships.

Links from this episode

Jordan Harbinger’s Bio:

  • Jordan Harbinger is co-founder of the Art of Charm, a coaching company and podcast to teach guys how to be better with women, based in Hollywood, CA
  • Art of Charm podcast started as a weekly show when Jordan was in law school at University of Michigan, and got picked up by SiriusXM – podcast episodes on iTunes date back as far as 2007
  • Jordan went on to graduate law school and become a lawyer in New York
  • Jordan quit law and co-founded The Art of Charm in 2007 with AJ Harbinger

Further reading on Jordan Harbinger:

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
So, I actually ended up meeting one of the guys who ran, I don’t know if it was RSD or whatever or Mystery, he ran like all of their conferences for a few years and then he moved on to like bigger and better sort of internet marketing stuff, I guess.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Whatever space actually you can even make more money scamming people. But he told me that the way – he’s like. I kind of said that to him. I was like so, some equivalent of that conversation. He’s like ‘Look.’ He actually laughed. He goes ‘Believe it or not, we tried like giving stuff away for free and helping guys like for really cheap and it didn’t work.’ And I was like ‘What’re you talking about?’ He’s like ‘Most of these dudes who come to.’ He’s talking about the boot camps like whatever you pay like five grand to spend three days with these clowns, right?

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
And he’s like ‘Most of those dudes, the fact that they paid so much money made them even more anxious than they normally are around girls so we had– So, basically we had to double their anxiety about something else to make them get over their anxiety about approaching women.’

Jordan:
Oh, my God.

Tucker:
And I was like. I looked at him like ‘Are you fucking shitting me?’ Like you didn’t say oh, maybe we should teach them how to deal with the real issue. You said no, let me see. I can literally exploit thousands of dollars out of them to make them feel like they got over their issue when really they go home. So, I asked him. I’m like ‘Dude, more, like having different levels of anxiety doesn’t mean you get over something, you know?’

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Like I’m super, if someone’s super afraid of heights, making them go on the porch at the point of a gun doesn’t make them get less afraid of heights.

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
It just puts them on the porch for an hour. And he’s like ‘Dude, you’re totally right. I know. Most of them didn’t get better after a month or two but they felt like they got better after one boot camp because they’d never approached women.’

Jordan:
Wow!

Tucker:
He actually explained it and it has this evil genius to it. He’s like ‘So, what would happen is the first weekend they would come and they’d spend five grand or whatever two grand or three grand whatever they were charged. And they’d be so afraid and we would basically force them and they would approach women because they’d spent so much money. So, it was one anxiety overcoming another anxiety. And then they’d spend this weekend approaching women and they’d get one phone number and they’d get this crazy serotonin rush and we’d be pumping them up and high fiving and this and that.’ He’s like ‘Most of the instructors don’t really know what they’re doing.’ He’s like ‘The instructor would like tell a girl that like her friend is hurt and then take her to the back and then like he’d push her out the back and lock the back of the door. And then come back like oh, yeah, I slept with her in the bathroom or something.

Jordan:
That’s insane.

Tucker:
And then the dudes would be freaked like that’s amazing whatever, right? And they’d go home and then after a month or two the serotonin high would wear off. And they’d be back to their anxious selves and they’d be like man, I need to take another boot camp because clearly I didn’t learn enough the first one.

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
And they had these email. He told me ‘We had these email responders set up where it was like, we basically, after they left the boot camp, we would hit their anxieties again about follow-up and they should be doing this. And are you doing this? And blah, blah, blah. And we’d throw all this stuff at them that would confuse them and make them think that they were at fault for not learning enough so they would do a second and a third boot camp.’ And I looked at him and I was like.

Jordan:
That’s sick man.

Tucker:
Dude. I was like ‘First off, why doesn’t like our government hire to you like run PSYOP against like Muslims, you know? Like if you can convince dudes to spend five grand for bullshit, you can convince people to stop suicide bombing themselves.’ And like what the fuck, man? It was.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
It was genius but it was also so evil.

Jordan:
Sociopathic.

Tucker:
Right. It was like on one hand I had to respect the genius. On the other hand, you know, I was just like man, this is so fucking bad.

Jordan:
Yeah. You respect it like you respect an angry bear. You don’t want to fucking hang out with it a lot but.

Tucker:
Well.

Jordan:
You feel the healthy fear.

Tucker:
You’re not, I’m afraid of an angry bear. I’m not afraid of these dudes.

Jordan:
Yeah. No, I agree. I think, you know, and it makes me sad to hear that because there’s a term for that in the industry, in any training industry, coaching and it’s called the post-seminar or post-boot camp high. And we actually mitigate that as much as possible because we want you to continue to practice anything that we taught you. You know, we don’t teach just like meeting chicks and getting phone numbers. That’s not what AOC’s about but you have to be careful with that because guys will be like ‘I want this and oh, my God, life is amazing.’ And you’re like ‘I’m glad you feel good but like build healthy habits. Start, you know, go to the gym, lose the weight that you came in with, like work on your social circle. Don’t just try to like go out to the bar every night.’ Because like you said, what happens after a month, you’re like ‘Wow, I’m meeting a bunch of really gross people that I don’t like. This was a waste.’ And then either you hate the person you bought training from or you hate yourself and that’s like a drug addict mentality, like you said. ‘Oh, come and get the next one. Oh, you don’t have the next level of super human secret information. Oh, man, you only got intro level.’ And that sucks and I hate seeing marketing like that because it is, it’s actually really disgusting and it’s shameful because that says that you just don’t care whether or not you help anyone. You’re actively trying to hurt people up to the point of which they run out of money. In which case, then they’re dead to you and that makes me want to punch babies in the face.

Tucker:
Dude, that’s the pickup artists, man. Like I just thought they were lame until like that dude and a couple other people really kind of broke it down for me how it actually worked. And then, I stopped thinking they were lame and I thought they were awful, you know? Like.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I mean, and granted, listen some of them are just sad and they don’t do that. That’s more the advanced ones. They’re the ones that like go to all, like Eben Pagan runs fucking marketing conferences and it’s like ten grand to go them or what the fuck ever he charges. And like there was actually someone who emailed me about this. He’s like, he’s a direct marketer for something else and he went to one of those conferences. And he had like gone to the some of the pickup artist things. And when he saw all of them there he’s like ‘Holy shit,’ had that moment of clarity where it was like ‘these dudes are scamming me like I’m scamming other people.’

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I was like ‘Well, maybe you should stop scamming other people shit bird.’ He’s like ‘Oh yeah, that makes sense.’

Jordan:
That must have been sort of like – what is that movie? Inception? Where you’re like holy shit, it’s a marketer.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
Inside marketers, wait a minute, I’m being marketed to.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
I’m offended now.

Tucker:
He’s marketing to marketers. That’s amazing.

Jordan:
Yeah. Well, that’s where the money is and it’s funny because one thing you’ve noticed, I’m sure, from hanging out with all these guys whenever you do come across them at whatever event you happen to be invited to. They’re always selling each other. So, like the richest marketers are the guys who sell marketing BS to other marketers. Like ‘Get Facebook traffic now. I’m making a million dollars this month off of Facebook ads. Want my system? Buy it now.’ And it’s three grand and you think ‘Well, this is spending money to make money. So, this is worth it.’

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jordan:
Meanwhile, if you turned around and tried to sell that same thing to a consumer, you would be like ‘Oh, you can’t do that. This is totally different.’ You’d price it at $29 and you’d still do mediocre. And this is the exact same product with like different branding around it. And that’s, I think, what a lot of this pickup guys are doing is they’re not even trying. Even back in the day before it got commercialized, you know, looking at some of this old stuff that I was running around in 2003 when I first found it and thinking like ‘Wow, this stuff must be cool. Sure there’s weird guys on the internet but they’re probably like just the weirdos on the internet. The guys who are in charge of this, I’m sure, are upstanding people.’ And then.

Tucker:
Someone has to be in charge, right?

Jordan:
Right. Somebody, yeah. What is that called when it’s like the animals are running the circus, the patients are running the institution?

Tucker:
Yeah, right.

Jordan:
That’s when you find out that then you just get really sad and disappointed and I think for a lot of guys like what we did is we decided let’s teach people stuff, what we know best and even if we’re just talking about our own experiences because God knows back then we were not coaches or authorities of any type at all.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
It was almost like the blind leading the blind only we weren’t completely socially retarded back then. But these other guys, they either go ‘Oh, this is BS,’ and they move onto something else or they go ‘Oh, now I’m initiated. I see the light now and I see it’s all bullshit. I’m going to use this to make money off of other people.’

Tucker:
Exactly.

Jordan:
And that’s where it gets like really sketchy because then you’re filtering in these predatory sociopaths into the marketing funnel but you’re keeping out the good people who kind of realized ‘Oh, this is BS.’ So, for a long time, AJ and I were under fire 24/7 because we were the only guys who were like ‘Yeah, don’t buy that. It’s crap.’ And people were like ‘You’re breaking the code here, you know? We’re all trying to sell.

Tucker:
What code?

Jordan:
Yeah, exactly.

Tucker:
What is that the code to fuck people? What code is that?

Jordan:
Yeah. And I remember getting an email from, I can’t remember who exactly it was, a big marketer in the space and we were like ‘Hey, we want you to come on our show and talk about some of the things that you know about this dating stuff and like we’ll check out your product.’ And he goes ‘Cool but you’ve got to mail out this way.’ And we’re like ‘Cool. Will you mail out for us?’ And they were like ‘No, you’ve got to pay to play, son.’ And I was like ‘What are you talking about? Because we’re just trying to figure out how to get information to the most people.’

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
And they were like ‘I don’t want your information. I don’t want my people getting your information unless I make money from it.’ And it was just this naivety we had where we were like ‘But wait, aren’t you trying to help people?’ And they were kind of like ‘No, dumbass. I’m trying to run a business and if I have to run people over in the process of doing that then so be it.’ And that’s when we were like ‘Wow, we don’t want to work with these guys anymore and we certainly don’t want to be associated with PUA pickup anything anymore at all because maybe there’s like one nice like Neil Strauss guy who’s actually intelligent for every thousand creepy freaks who’s like ‘Got a new system to like bang chicks’ and use all this nasty verbiage. You know ‘Bang chicks on Facebook, bro.’ And it’s like ‘No, thanks.’ Didn’t you see that dude who got called out in Ukraine for being like a sex tourist?

Tucker:
Wait a minute. Oh, my God, Jordan. That’s so funny you bring that up. Oh, my God. Okay. There’s a reason. Oh, my. Okay. Alright. Hold on. Because this is. Alright. So, I did. Oh, God, this is amazing. I can’t believe you brought that up. I did an interview with Scott Barry Kaufman about–

Jordan:
He is a fucking awesome dude, by the way.

Tucker:
Oh, Scott’s amazing. I’ve known Scott for years, right? So, Scott and I did an expert interview like a few months ago. It actually hasn’t even come out on Mating Grounds, yet, on my Podcast.

Jordan:
That’s funny. I did one with him. It’s not out either. We’ve got to not coordinate that.

Tucker:
Right, right, exactly. So, anyway, he mentioned this dude, Roosh is the guy’s name, right?

Jordan:
Yes, that’s right.

Tucker:
And he’s like whatever. He’s like ‘Oh, yeah apparently the guy is a total fraud and he like didn’t sleep with any of these women. He got called out on Ukrainian TV.’ This is all him, what he told me, right? I didn’t really know who this dude Roosh was.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I didn’t know what he was talking about. I was like ‘Oh, that’s interesting,’ whatever, right? And so, then like two days later we recorded a bunch of sort of people who listen to Mating Grounds were writing in emailing us being like ‘What do you think about pickup artists? Or you said this but like this pickup artist actually says something else or blah, blah, blah.’ And it was sort of like ‘Okay, look. We’re going to do one podcast about these dudes and how fucked up they are and how wrong they are. And then we’re going to move on with the shit that matters,’ right? And, so, it’s like an hour long podcast. Me and Geoff and Nils talked about pickup artists like sort of you know, how some of them are sociopaths and most are scammers, etc.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And how it developed from guys with Asperger’s and all this sort of stuff you and I are talking about. And literally in there, in that one hour podcast I had like maybe a 20 second aside where I was like someone brought something up and I said ‘Oh, yeah, I heard one of those dudes got called out for lying about the women he slept on Ukrainian TV. I forget his name.’ And Jason, the producer said ‘Roosh is his name.’ And I said ‘Roosh. That’s his name? Oh yeah. So, apparently this Roosh dude is liar or something, I don’t know?’ That’s what I said and we just went on. It was just an aside. Oh, my God, Jordan. An absolute shit bomb hit when this podcast went up and of course, it was not all over the internet. It was the definition of a tempest in a teapot.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Someone posted it on one his forums or sent it to him. This dude like freaked out, freaked out, man. First off, he recorded a video demanding an apology from me, and posted it on YouTube. Called me a liar, went through this elaborate explanation about why what he did with this Ukraine book was not lying. Like he put pictures in and there was a big disclaimer at the bottom that said that he hadn’t slept with these women–whatever. These were just examples of the Ukrainian women or whatever. Some elaborate explanation or why he wasn’t a liar which of course means that he’s probably lying, right?

Jordan:
Yeah, of course.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
That’s very lawyerly of him.

Tucker:
Obviously.

Jordan:
‘Oh, these aren’t the exact results not typical dot, dot, dot.’

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
‘Fuck you, I got caught.’

Tucker:
Right. You need to read the fine print. Like it was one of those. And dude, oh my God, I’ll email you the video afterwards. You’re going to laugh your ass off at this dude. First off, it looks like he’s filming in his grandmother’s kitchen. I mean, I was like, I was shocked when I saw it. It was like an old woman who lives in section 8 housing. It was like her kitchen that he was filming in. And he was like ‘I demand this,’ and blah, blah, blah. He goes ‘I don’t even know why this Tucker Max is attacking me. Like is it because his movie failed or is it because?’ Blah, blah. He just went on this like – I don’t know how long. How long was the video, Jason?

Jason:
Like five.

Tucker:
Five minute rant about like literally a tiny aside in this podcast that had nothing to do with him. That’s how fragile this dude’s ego is.

Jordan:
Yeah, this sounds like narcissist crap where you like accidentally offend someone and they dedicate a year of their life to like stalking you and shit.

Tucker:
Dude, he wrote all these things about me and had all his minions write these things about me. And what’s funny is like I guess he thinks he’s super powerful and influential or something. I’m not sure. Some of his fans do or whatever. He has like this little clique of young angry like really pissed off little boys who hate their mommies.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I think who follow him around. And it was like, they’re like, you know, ‘The “manosphere” won’t stand for this attack,’ and blah, blah. I’m like first off, y’all motherfuckers are not the “manosphere.” You’re just a bunch of clowns.

Jordan:
Yeah, this is a message board.

Tucker:
Right. You’re little angry boys and you’re on a message board because you don’t do shit in real life. So, be serious. And like, you know, ‘Master won’t stand for this and Tucker Max is going down,’ and blah, blah, blah, and this and that. ‘Your things a failure. What are you going to do now, Tucker?’ And as like they’re saying this like my podcast is number one in health category or whatever at the time.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
You know, they’re like ‘We’re going to launch an attack,’ and they left like three negative reviews on iTunes.

Jordan:
Oh, no.

Tucker:
Right they had a couple of them Twitter reply to me and like that was it. I couldn’t get his response in my head. It was how much of a narcissist to be angry at this?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And then how ridiculously fragile do you have to be to think this is the cause of a war? And then how pathetic do you have to be that this is your war?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
You know what I’m saying? It’s like there’s multiple points of failure along here which I think. That actually should be the name of his blog, Multiple Points of Failure.

Jordan:
So, does this mean I’m not going to see you at Roosh’s Christmas party?

Tucker:
Maybe if I apologize like he demanded.

Jordan:
Just do it, man. You don’t want to unlock that “manosphere” Pandora’s Box.

Tucker:
You know, what’s funny is like, okay, so who are the big people in the “manosphere”? Art of manliness is really big like they can’t stand Roosh. I mean, you go down the list. If you name like a lot of the big people like apparently. You have a very big podcast. You’ve got a big site. Apparently, you’re not a huge fan of his.

Jordan:
I’m not going to interview anybody who titles their book ‘Bang’. Not only that, but like the fact is the messaging is so wrong and, I mean, we don’t have to go down that rabbit hole again but it’s basically ‘You’re not good enough as you are but if you buy this book I can teach you how to trick some ho’s into sleeping with you.’ And it’s like ‘It’s against everything I stand for. No, thanks. Next.’

Tucker:
Dude, I’m telling you like Jordan, you have got it. I’m going to send you this link he wrote, this article he wrote. So, the first like obviously, after this little tempest in the teapot, this little shit bomb outside of my door landed I was like ‘What is this,’ right? I went to his site because I wanted to learn a little bit about who this person was especially after that video and the section 8 housing which was so funny, dude. So, the first article on there is about – what was it called Jason? Something about I can’t remember all the pickup artists vernacular. It was like Night Game in America is Dead or something.

Jason:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Okay, right. It was Night Game is Dead and…I’m stuttering because it’s hard for me to verbalize the emotional impact that this article had on me because I didn’t realize that dudes were like this. So, basically, his piece, he outlined why he thought…night game, I guess, in pickup artists is like meeting girls at bars and clubs, right, which is called real life but that’s fine.

Jordan:
Right which is called, yeah, yeah, exactly. No need to make a term for it. It’s just real life when it’s dark outside.

Tucker:
Exactly. Right. So, night game – meeting girls at bars. And I guess this dude was in D.C. or whatever, some American city. And he hated it. He said ‘You know, in 2005 or whatever in America used to be amazing.’ And his basic point was that girls were so insecure you didn’t need any social proof. You could just treat them like shit and they would sleep with you. And he’s like ‘Now, because of the iPhone and things like Tinder and OK Cupid, girls have a lot of options and they expect you to bring value and entertain them. And this sucks. And who do these bitches think they are? So night game in America is dead.’

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Dude, I know you think I’m exaggerating. You’re going to read this and it’s going to be worse than what I just said.

Jordan:
That’s unbelievable. So, I mean, the basic premise of that is man it sucks because now we have to actually improve ourselves and focus on being good human beings and making women like us instead of just settling for the lowest common denominator, scraping the bottom of the barrel and finding there’s plenty there.

Tucker:
Dude, he is a straight up real life sociopath.

Jordan:
It sounds like it.

Tucker:
No, I mean like–

Jordan:
I feel bad.

Tucker:
It’s frightening. You read it and it’s not frightening like I’m not afraid because please make me laugh, right?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
It’s more like man, like you understand…I actually, this is a little bit hyperbole but not really. I really got a glimpse into the mind of like real rapists and real mass murderers and real criminals, you know? It’s like you watch the Sopranos and you think gangsters are actually fun, you know? And that was sort of part of the show is that it’s supposed to show like oh, they seem like fun loving guys but then they’ll also put like their cousin through a meat grinder, right?

Jordan:
Right, yeah.

Tucker:
But then like you still realize– it’s TV, right? You know what I’m saying?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
There’s always that disconnect.

Jordan:
They’re not your neighbors. Right, yeah.

Tucker:
Exactly. And then you read something by one of these like – He’s not just like – some of the pickup artists are just kind of sad, lonely losers and whatever. No, no, no. This dude is a straight up sociopath. And you’re like holy shit, man. It’s hard to see it and actually be like wow, this is not an angry misguided little boy. This is like a truly emotionally fucked up hateful terrible person. It’s hard to conceive of until you actually see it written out like that.

Jordan:
It is. It’s frightening because, you know, back in the day when I used to do – like I said, eight years ago I look at marketing and videos from the Art of Charm and I’m like ‘Oh, God, delete that. Get rid of that. That’s ridiculous.’ We didn’t know what we were talking, like remove this.’

Tucker:
Of course.

Jordan:
It’s unhealthy messaging. Like we’re always trying to figure that out. Like you said on my show, you grow over eight years and anybody who hasn’t should see a doctor, right?

Tucker:
Yes.

Jordan:
So, like I look at that stuff and even the worst thing that was ever out there that I’ve ever uttered anywhere on our show or otherwise, is not even close to some of the stuff that’s going out there from these guys. And what makes it really sad, you know women are like ‘It’s sad that there’s a whole cauldron of men who think like this.’ And, I mean, yeah that’s tragic and sad but here’s the other problem. There’s a lot of guys that didn’t have you and I to listen to or that don’t listen to shows. They can’t find us. They found him first or his brothers listen to him. And you look at that and they’re like ‘Oh, I guess this is how guys who are successful or like guys who are manly men because guys who bang lots of chicks are the real dudes. This is how they think so I need to become more like that.’ And you think damn, there’s thousands of guys that are literally looking for guidance and what they’re finding is that crap.

Tucker:
Yes.

Jordan:
And nothing else.

Tucker:
Dude, that’s why.

Jordan:
Why you do the show, right?

Tucker:
Exactly. That’s why we do our thing and that’s why you do your thing, too, man. Like, actually it’s funny. I actually talked about your stuff on our pickup artist episode because like I think Geoff was asking me what’s an example of someone who’s got it right. And I’m like ‘Well, I know, I’ve been on the Art of Charm podcast. I’ve looked at his stuff. I know Jordan actually cares, like he cares about the right things and he’s trying to do the right things. You can argue over whether he’s effective sometimes. That’s a different discussion, though. Like is it good is a different discussion from like is this person scamming me.’

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
You know?

Jordan:
That’s true.

Tucker:
Is it the best possible is a very different discussion than like is this person a sociopath, you know?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
So, let me ask you. You know a lot more about that space than I do. What, in your mind when you just talk about like example or you’re talking about like pickup artists who like scam dudes or teach them bad stuff, what are some really, you don’t have to name names but more like lessons. What are things you hear other people teaching that you’re like ‘That’s fucking bullshit. That’s totally wrong. You’re fucking guys up?’

Jordan:
Aside from just like some of the super. Well, one, man, where do I begin? Good question.

Tucker:
Yes, yeah.

Jordan:
There’s sort of an underlying fundamental message that you’re not a real man unless you bang a lot of girls. And I say bang because that’s how these guys are talking. And they’re using.

Tucker:
Yep.

Jordan:
I sound like an old woman or old man now.

Tucker:
I know. We’re gender feminist now, Jordan, you and me.

Jordan:
I know. How did that happen? But the truth of the matter is if you talk about women in like these win lose scenarios where one person is the guy and he’s being victorious over the women that he’s seducing and conquering that is an unhealthy mindset to look forward to. Because guys, if you want to ever get married or have a girlfriend that’s in a healthy relationship with you or have kids, you can’t be thinking about this stuff zero sum. And what I mean by that is an adversarial relationship.

Tucker:
Yep.

Jordan:
Where one person’s needs are met, the other person’s are being sacrificed and vice-versa. And a lot of the pickup stuff is taught to do that but you don’t think about it in the moment. You just think I’m a successful guy and I’m getting a lot of girls. And the thing is I know a lot of guys, you and I know some of these same guys that have had like one or two girlfriends in their whole life. And they’re good people. I don’t ever think ‘Oh, this guy’s cool except for he doesn’t have that many, you know, he doesn’t have that many notches on his belt or something.’ That never falls into the calculation of a successful guy that is actually secure. We never think about how many girls has this guy been with or anything. Unless you’re talking about and they’re trying to front. You never judge people by that.

Tucker:
Well, right, exactly. Think of it like this. No one’s ever asked how many women did Teddy Roosevelt sleep with, you know?

Jordan:
Sure, yeah.

Tucker:
No one’s ever, no one says man, George Washington was a bad ass. I don’t know, how many girls did he sleep with? They just never, it never, ever comes up. Like that’s not a measure. Dude, it funny. And I’m sitting from a position where I’ve slept with a lot of women.

Jordan:
Yeah, you have.

Tucker:
Right and like a lot of dudes look up to me for that. And I’m like ‘Look, I definitely like women and I definitely am happy that I had a lot of sex in my life. I’m not going to lie about that. But at the same time, that’s not why I’m cool.’ You know?

Jordan:
Yeah, yeah.

Tucker:
There was definitely a point in my life I thought ‘Okay, like.’ Actually I don’t even know, man. I don’t know if I ever slept with girls because I thought it made me cool. I slept with girls because I just really wanted to fuck a lot of girls, you know? But, no, you’re totally right. So, the idea that women, that the number of women you sleep is a definition of masculinity.

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
Or coolness or identity really is what it is, right?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I was going to say number two, the two things you identified that pickup artists get wrong. So, one is that numbers are what matters as opposed to what you want and what you’re looking for, right?

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
And then that women are our opponents.

Jordan:
Right, yeah.

Tucker:
That sex is adversarial as opposed to finding things that are great for both of you.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
That I like and she likes.

Jordan:
Sex and relationships for that matter. And what comes into play here is another thing which is taught and this is in the overlying sort of technique that a lot of the pickup guys use that I can’t stand which is they say ‘Alright, you need like a cool story and, you know, you need to add these like demonstration of value elements into the story.’ And I used to think ‘Oh, this is about storytelling,’ but it’s not. It’s about making things up out of whole cloth so that other people will think that you’re cool and like you. And that’s very Los Angeles.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
It’s very Hollywood.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
And the problem is you might think ‘Oh, I’m just playing with it. I’m just doing it while I’m in college. I’m just doing it in high school or I’m just doing it until I can take the training wheels off.’ But here’s the real problem with it. What you’re telling yourself every time you talk about how your stripper ex-girlfriend picked you up in her Ferrari because she was on a movie set, every time you say some shit like that, what you’re telling yourself is no matter what I do in my real life I will never be as cool as the shit I’m making up and that is what women really like. So, I will never get the kind of girls that I want because I will never actually deserve it like my invisible friend pretend alter ego does. And therefore, you’re always setting the bar not only higher than you possible should but way into left field so that even guys who are really, really good at this, guys who have quote unquote mastered the arts of seduction and all that other retarded crap. Those guys are some of the most unhappy people going back to what you and I were saying before, that you can find because what they’ve realized is they’ve only won the game in that people love the fake them and they can never escape that. And I know one instructor from a prominent like pickup company, he was, he called me years ago because he needed to solve a problem. And the problem was that he had met a girl that he really liked. And I said ‘Okay, I’m waiting for the problem here. Maybe you can just tell her what your job is.’ I’m thinking maybe he’s worried she’s going to leave him when she finds out what he does and maybe he’s worried he can’t be monogamous. It wasn’t anything like that. The problem was he had lied to her for months about having a British accent and he faked it for months. And, so, he’s like ‘I want to be with her longer term, what do I do?’ I said, ‘You have to come clean. You can’t fake a British accent for.’

Tucker:
The rest of your life.

Jordan:
The rest of your life. What are you going to do? And finally he told her and she went ‘You are insane and I never want to see you again.’ And he was heartbroken. And instead of going ‘Gee, I did this all wrong,’ what he said is ‘This stuff doesn’t even work. It’s all a freaking sham.’ And then he just went off the rails and went into hermitville. And I was like ‘You might just want to tweak the process here, bro.’

Tucker:
Are you fucking, is that? I mean, I’m sure.

Jordan:
That’s a real story.

Tucker:
My, God, you know.

Jordan:
A true one.

Tucker:
You know what’s totally fucked up too is that Hollywood would write that as a goofy romantic comedy where they actually end up together in the end.

Jordan:
Right. In the end she’s like ‘Oh, I guess he really is nice,’ and Dane Cook would play the guy who gets around it.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
Because he’s the only one who can pull that shit off.

Tucker:
And then the movie would flop because Dane Cook is in it.

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
That’s fucked up. He faked a British accent.

Jordan:
Right.

Tucker:
For five months.

Jordan:
Because, because how long.

Tucker:
Oh, my God.

Jordan:
Because what, because she won’t think you’re cool if you talk with a regular accent like the one that you have? That’s the only reason to do that stuff.

Tucker:
I can’t even. I know it’s true and I can’t. It’s like, that’s like reading that Roosh article. Like I can’t believe this is a real thing that people think. I can’t believe that. Five months? Like he didn’t stop after a week and be like ‘I was just fucking with you or something.’ Like five months!

Jordan:
It was either three to five months. It’s so long ago I don’t remember the exact amount of time but it is.

Tucker:
Whatever. Three months doesn’t change. It’s not like three months makes it okay.

Jordan:
That’s splitting hairs. That’s a good point. Yeah, because I’m thinking and you know people when I tell that story sometimes people in fact, our other friend, mutual friend, the guy who introduced me to him because I don’t know that guy very well. But he was like ‘You know, I kind of get where he was. He was trying to demonstrate something for his student.’ I’m thinking one that’s bullshit. Two, what are you demonstrating to your student, that you’re not good enough as you are? And three, if you’re demonstrating something to a freaking student maybe after the first date you’re like ‘Listen.’

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
‘This is ridiculous. I don’t have a British accent. I feel sorry that you feel dumb but I do really like you. Please let’s give me another chance.’ 100% authenticity and if you’re lucky she’ll be like ‘That’s ridiculous and I guess maybe because you seem cool other than that, maybe I’ll give you another chance.’ But after months of doing it you’re just a crazy person.

Tucker:
Right. That’s why she said you’re crazy.

Jordan:
Yeah, she’s right.

Tucker:
She didn’t say it because you faked a British accent for a night. She did it because you faked it for months into a relationship.

Jordan:
Like met the parents with a British accent type of bullshit.

Tucker:
Are you serious?

Jordan:
I mean, what, how do you tell your parents you broke up with your boyfriend because he was fake British?

Tucker:
You know what? If I was that girl at that point, I’d be like.

Jordan:
She lied about it.

Tucker:
Yeah, he was married. He didn’t tell me or something like that, yeah.

Jordan:
He’s never around and we don’t spend enough time together. Let’s talk about something else right now. Yeah.

Tucker:
Oh, God.

Jordan:
‘I dated a guy who’s crazy and I hope he’s not watching me right now’ because that’s the kind of thing those people would do.

Tucker:
My God, man. That’s, you know, I shouldn’t be shocked at that. And I still am.

Jordan:
I know.

Tucker:
I shouldn’t be shocked at that and I really am. Oh, my God. Alright, so, I don’t know, dude. You’ve just thrown this interview so far off the rails.

Jordan:
Sure.

Tucker:
Because I don’t know what to say now.

Jordan:
I’m glad I could leave you speechless. Honestly, though, I mean, that’s just the tip of the iceberg of some of the principles and concepts. And here’s the thing – what is that expression? I’m so bad with clichés and expressions which is fine. But it’s like the something, something is paved with good intention.

Tucker:
Well, first off I’m so bad with expressions is a cliché.

Jordan:
Is it?

Tucker:
Right, right. It is. That is one.

Jordan:
It’s just a, it’s a, yeah it’s a cliché.

Tucker:
I’m so bad with quotes. No, it’s the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Jordan:
Yes. And it’s true because a lot of the principle, well, maybe I’m not as bad as I thought. Thank you for propping me up on that one. It’s true though. Like a lot of these guys are trying. They’re like ‘No, these are training wheels. You know, you don’t need to do this all the time,’ but here’s the problem with even the quote unquote training wheels theory is that – and I’ll explain this a little more. Training wheels in that like ‘Oh, you only make up those stories for the beginning until people start reacting differently to you and then you can take them off and you can be authentic,’ but that’s such a load of crap because what you’re saying is so, what you’re going to do is be super inauthentic, get people liking a fake you, take the training wheels off, and then you can be yourself, and then what? Suddenly people are going to treat you the same way they were.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
Before. That’s not true at all.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
If you put scaffolding up and you build a building but you don’t use any metal beams, you just use dry wall and then you pull the scaffolding off, the whole thing collapses because the metal beams aren’t there. You can’t just make up a bunch of crap, paint a façade and hope that it stays up without any support. You have to actually build confidence. You can’t just pretend to be confidence without backing it up at all and without putting in the work. You’ve got to like do the – you know, you’ve gone to therapy. I’ve gone to therapy. It’s all a big therapy family. You’ve got to do fucking work on yourself, dude. You can’t pretend to have done the work and you can’t pretend to be someone else or it’s going to come falling down and not only does the falling down part tear people up and leave them disappointed but what it does it says ‘Oh, this is never going to work. I either have to constantly be this other fake person or just give up on it.’ And either one, both of those camps of guys, I’m sure you’ve gotten emails from them because I know I do.

Tucker:
Oh, yes.

Jordan:
Both of those camps of guys are sad and upset and lonely and really, really, discouraged.

Tucker:
Yep.

Jordan:
And that’s the worst combination that you can have.

Tucker:
No, dude, that’s why I tell guys all the time fake it until you make it is bad, bad advice. Bad advice because it creates the exact situation you just described. That’s what fake it until you make it is, is like exactly what you described and everyone now, the big sort of response to that is now everyone sends me the link to Amy Cuddy’s Ted video. And they don’t listen to the end where Amy explains that it’s not fake until you make it. It’s fake it to get started so that you can then do the work to become it.

Jordan:
Exactly, exactly.

Tucker;
Totally different. So fundamentally different that it’s like apples and oranges. They are totally different things.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
So, how do you tell, the big question I get. I’m sure, probably it’s one of the main questions you get all the time from guys. How do I become confident?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
I know what I say. What do you say?

Jordan:
This is a tough cookie, right, because it is sort of. People misquote me all the time on fake until you make it.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
And like yes, but the point is you’re putting forth like confident maybe body language and physiology and then people start to treat you differently but then you work within those parameters. You don’t just go ‘Oh, I can continually lay on layers of BS.’ For us, men, it’s tough to really just give this like an audio only sort of format but really it comes down to being a subtractive process. And what I mean by that is like whereas pickup artists guys are like ‘I am going to add a layer of cool onto my personality. I’m going to add light up necklaces. I’m going to add crazy uber alpha wannabe body language. I’m going to add bells and whistles and fake stories.’ We’re trying to take away insecurity which is a freaking tough process. And we have actual therapists on staff at AOC to do this because for people who are just winging it to try to do this it actually does more harm than good in a lot of cases. And, so, it comes down to figuring out what you’re doing to sort of please other people or how.

Tucker:
Jordan, Jordan. This sounds like too much work. We live in a sound bite culture, buddy. I need a sound bite.

Jordan:
Shit man. Sound bite?

Tucker:
No, I’m kidding. I make a joke to make a point though.

Jordan:
Okay.

Tucker:
Everything you’re saying is right. It does take a ton of work, right?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
But then don’t you get the same thing all over? Yeah, yeah, but what do I do? Or yeah, yeah, but like okay that sounds like a lot of work. But what do I do? You know what I’m saying?

Jordan:
Yeah. I totally do because I remember being like that in the beginning where people were like ‘It’s all about nonverbal communication and great first impressions.’ And I go ‘Yeah, what do I say though?’ And they’re like ‘Well, we need to make sure that your delivery and, you know, the way that you make eye contact is confident. And the way that you interact with people is just, you know, normalized and calm and present.’ And I go ‘Dude, are you listening to me? What do I fucking say?’

Tucker:
They don’t have an answer, yeah.

Jordan:
And they’re like ‘Uhh.’ And then some people who are smarter were like ‘Yo, you can say anything you want.’ Like my Tucker Maxish friends who are like really good with women were like ‘Dude, it doesn’t matter what you fucking say, dude. You just like walk up there and be like yo and then like go out and skateboard and like just fucking chill with her dude.’ And I’m like ‘That doesn’t work for me because when I walk up to girls they’re like ‘what are you doing. Get the fuck out of here’’ And I’m like sixth grade Jordan is not getting it, right? And, so, yeah, you’re right it is a lot of work and that’s the problem is people are looking for like ‘Oh, but I saw this e-book that says that I’ll be sleeping with a different girl three nights a week if I use this one weird trick. So, why should I listen to Jordan? His thing, I can barely wrap my head around this let alone do it in the next ten hours so I’m going to buy this $30 product. Because that’s probably going to work. It’s guaranteed anyway. Right? And it’s fucking hard man because young guys especially which I know are some of the core demographic that you and I are talking to right now, those guys are really looking for help in this area. And all they have are maybe they have their dad.

Tucker:
No.

Jordan:
And maybe they have an older brother who can’t explain this even if they’re good at it but most of them if they’re like me have nobody to look at other than shit they see on the internet, television or movies that isn’t even available to them to like bounce ideas off of. And trial and error is just a thing that just seems so, it’s a mountain of work that seems so overwhelming they don’t know where to begin. So, when I try to teach this stuff on shows or on stages when I’m speaking, I give like little body language tactics and stuff like that. Right away, I’m like listen guys. This isn’t going to change who you are. It’s going to change the way people react to you and you’ve got to build these little habits, tiny little habits slowly over time. I’m like if you have an eye contact issue it’s internal. It’s not, I might say notice the eye color of everyone you meet every day for two weeks. But here’s the thing. That’s a great external habit but if you’re still feeling hella shy and quiet it’s a reflection of what’s going on inside. It’s not. I can try to manually wrench your body into a position that looks attractive but that’s not really going to hold water when you’re interacting with somebody if the inside is a fucking mess.

Tucker:
How do you guys, that’s pretty interesting. You have like therapists on staff. How do you, like, how do you work that process? Like what do you do?

Jordan:
Well, they’re therapists and Kim she’s an image consultant as well. So, like she’s got a lot, she wears a lot of hats, I guess, but she’s not like.

Tucker:
Is Kim the Asian girl with the Jersey accent?

Jordan:
No. In fact, I was wondering, somebody emailed me that. I’m wondering who that even was because we don’t have anybody Asian working here and we haven’t had anybody, nobody from New Jersey’s allowed to work at the office.

Tucker:
I’m telling you it was just one video I watched with like it was an Asian girl that had like some sort of northeastern accent. I couldn’t stop laughing at the accent.

Jordan:
I don’t know. I’ll have.

Tucker:
I’ll find it. I’ll find the video.

Jordan:
If you still have it, send it to me because it’s very possible. I mean, New Jersey and Michigan accents are hard to confuse but it’s possible that it was like maybe some actress we hired to like demonstrate something years ago.

Tucker:
I mean, it was some Asian. She was a cute Asian girl. I don’t know.

Jordan:
It might have been like AJ’s old girlfriend from back in New York. It’s so hard to say right now. I don’t know anybody that had an accent but like I said, some of the marketing and videos we have from five, six, seven, eight years ago, I’m like what the, who wrote, who did this? Make sure they don’t work here anymore but–

Tucker:
Dude, we all have mistakes in our past. That’s no big deal.

Jordan:
Yeah. I hear you and so, having a therapist on staff it is good because sometimes– First of all, I screen everybody that comes through the Art of Charm as best I can. I’ve honed this process over a really long time. And it’s tough because sociopaths are exactly the type of people that are–

Tucker:
Yep.

Jordan:
That could chew that process up for breakfast.

Tucker:
Yep.

Jordan:
So, I try to figure out, I try to, there’s a lot of things that I’ll do to try to figure out if someone’s a good fit for what we do. Generally, sociopaths don’t even identify with what we’re doing because we’re like ‘You’re going to put in a lot of work and figure out.’

Tucker:
Yeah, no.

Jordan:
‘How to do a lot of good things for yourself and others.’ And they’re like ‘Yeah, I don’t think so, bro.’ And that’s.

Tucker:
What’s the quick way to do it?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
How can I scam people?

Jordan:
Exactly. And then other people come in and they’re like ‘Alright, well, you know, I just want to nail as many girls as possible.’ And they’ll say something like that and I’m like ‘This isn’t the place for you. Go somewhere else.’ And sometimes those guys, it’s funny, because they’ll like get angry about it.

Tucker:
Yeah. Because they see it as a rejection of themselves.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
They’re narcissists, yeah.

Jordan:
Yeah and I’m like ‘You should be thanking me. I just saved you a lot of time and money from coming here and not getting what you want.’ But other guys, they’ll come in and they’ll go ‘Well, I’m not sure if this for me because I’m not sure if I can do it.’ And I’m like ‘Listen, man. You’re not going to go through boot camp and come out, you know, after one week of work come out some sort of social Casanova. There’s a lot of work beforehand. There’s a lot of work during the program. There’s a ton of work afterwards and we have, we call it the Alumni Network but it’s hundreds of guys all over the place. And they’re not just like going out and picking up chicks. A lot of them are married. Like 30% of the guys that come through AOC are fucking married and they’re not trying to cheat on their wives or their girlfriends. They’re trying to just do stuff at work like create better relationships and network better. So, they’re leaning on those guys for like big bro type of advice. They’re like ‘What do I do in this situation? My boss stole the credit for a project,’ was something I saw on there a couple days ago. ‘What do I do? If I confront him I might get fired.’

Tucker:
So, this is like a message board forum for your members or something?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
That’s pretty cool.

Jordan:
For guys who graduated. Yeah.

Tucker:
That’s cool, yeah.

Jordan:
It’s cool because like I don’t know about you but if I have kids, when I have kids and I’m like my kid will not, he’s misbehaving in school. I don’t know what to do. I’m not just going to wing it. I’m going to ask somebody who’s got kid what do you do. And somebody’s going to be like ‘Beat that kid’s ass.’ And another person’s going to be like ‘Find out what’s up by talking gently with him.’ And then there’s going to be hopefully some sensible advice in between those two things that fit with like what I think might work and I need that because nobody has the answer to everything. And anybody who claims who does, man, well, just look at the internet marketers we just talked about.

Tucker:
Right. They’re trying to sell you something.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
The ones who have all the answers are trying to sell you something, always.

Jordan:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, it’s hard, man. It’s a tough process and so the best thing that we did to sort of hit that was have a therapist on staff who like if something hits the fan or somebody’s acting, you know, really strangely or hits an emotional wall, I need to be able to call somebody who’s not just like a dude bro who’s going to be like ‘Walk it off, dude.’ I need someone, it’s a female too which is good, who’s going to be like ‘Oh, this person shouldn’t even be here right now. Or this person needs this or we need to refer this person.’ Because if I see you on the first day and you’re like crying in your cereal and you’re laughing at the same time, I’m going to refund your money and send you to a doctor because I don’t want to make shit worse. You know what I mean? Like we know our limitations.

Tucker:
I just got in a car wreck and my family’s dead. ‘Yeah, just walk it off bro. ‘

Jordan:
Nice. Well, there you go.

Tucker:
That would be just walk it off. Dude, if I ever called a friend with like an emotional problem and they just said just walk it off.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
God, that would be amazing. So, you’re telling me you don’t want to go to the Adrian Peterson school of child rearing?

Jordan:
I don’t know what that is.

Tucker:
You know, Adrian Peterson.

Jordan:
No.

Tucker:
The NFL running back who like.

Jordan:
Oh, that guy.

Tucker:
Hitting his kids with switches and stuff.

Jordan:
Right, right, right. Yeah. No, that I’ll probably skip that one although, it depends on how bad my kids are. I shouldn’t probably joke about that. Honestly, I don’t have kids and there’s a reason for that but–

Tucker:
Abortion.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Abortion is the reason you don’t have kids yet. No, that’s the reason I don’t have kids.

Jordan:
I don’t have kids that I know of. How’s that?

Tucker:
Right, exactly. So, like what are. Let me tell you this. So, let’s put it this way. If I’m a young guy or even an older guy, right? Because, you know what’s funny, Jordan? I bet you have seen this. When Geoff and I first started this we thought out audience would be younger guys.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Would be, you know, like 16 to 26 and that’s definitely a large portion of the audience but we were totally wrong. That’s not the majority of our audience. I would say at least, we have at least as many dudes who are like 30 to 45 or 50, even. We have a huge number of older guys in our audience. Are you finding that?

Jordan:
Oh, yeah.

Tucker:
In your case, too?

Jordan:
Yeah, man. I’ll tell you. Right now, like, originally, of course, when we were starting the show largely our audience was well, podcasting in 2006, go figure.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
Like technical guys.

Tucker:
Of course.

Jordan:
Were pretty young and up on stuff but now I get emails from guys that are like ‘Hey, I’m 60 years old and I use this stuff in my marriage every single day and we’ve never been happier. Where were you 40 years ago?’ And I’m like ‘Well, I was not even a twinkle in my dad’s eye at that point.’ Right? But it’s so many guys that are older than me and it took me a while actually to kind of wrap my head around that I would have advice in the relationships and possibly dating sphere to give to these guys at all. But I’ve realized that it’s a lot like chemistry and I mean the subject in school. Where it’s you learn it when you learn it and a lot of it comes through experience but if most of your experience is crap and negative or sheltered or aimed in the completely opposite direction.

Tucker:
You don’t learn anything, yeah.

Jordan:
You don’t learn anything or worse you learn terrible habits. And I had a guy register for the program. He’s 51 and he’s an airline pilot. And he’s been married a couple times and he’s a hilarious, fun guy who’s got a lot going for him. Obviously, he’s doing really well in his life but he’s like ‘Man, I had a shitty ass upbringing. My parents didn’t give a shit. They tried but they just didn’t. And, so my views of women are all screwed up and it took me years to realize that women aren’t just a bunch of like crazy bitches and blah, blah, blah.’ And he’s like ‘I have no idea how to have a relationship outside my paradigms that I’ve had before where women are all crazy and I’m filtering in crazy women. I need to learn how to attract what I want. And I’ve been listening to your show and I realize the key is to work on deserving what I want and changing myself, you know, working on the good parts of myself to figure out how I’m going to make that happen.’ And that’s the type of guy we want to see here because we don’t want somebody who is like ‘I need to figure out all the tips and tricks. I need to figure out how to change myself to get hotter chicks,’ or something like that. We want guys who are like ‘Listen, I know this is a knife, a tool that can be sharpened and I also know that I’ve been dulling it out and doing bad things and internalizing bad habits for a really, really long time.’

Tucker:
So, let me ask. It’s funny, man. I see a lot of different, you know. I do investing and I work in whole other industries outside, obviously, of.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Of this sort of thing and one of the themes I see, I’ve started to see over and over even before Geoff and I started Mating Grounds is sort of like, I think that people are, men especially, are waking up to the idea that they were never taught how to be effective men, you know? Like either how to date or how to do anything well at life or what masculinity is or all this sort of stuff. And I think people are starting to wake up to the conversation that a lot of people, kind of the “manosphere” started in a lot of ways. Or at least, the “manosphere” actually evolved out of the need for this conversation, right?

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
About what is masculinity and how should men relate to women and how should men relate to each other and how should men relate to their lives, right? And, I think, the best parts of the “manosphere” really do a good job of addressing that question or at least it started. Let me ask you sort of like the final question of the interview. Where do you think, not the “manosphere” necessarily, where do you think that conversation is going? So, like, where do you think five, let’s say we do another interview in five years or something. What do you think we’re going to talk about? What’s going to be better or what’s going to be worse? What are dudes, where’s the world going to pivot to at least the world revolving around these sort of issues that you are talking about with your company and that we’re talking about with Mating Grounds?

Jordan:
It’s an interesting question because I get asked this all the time. And for us, you know, as I get older and more experienced just with relationships in life in general and in business, I see the Art of Charm largely pivoting towards relationship development. And I don’t even necessarily mean romantic relationships. I mean we might start talking about everything from successful marriages and partnerships to how to create networking at work. But the conversation, and relationships at work and things like that but the conversation won’t stop because we’re not going to stop having these problems as we get more and more advanced or more and more – I’m sorry – Population grows like crazy and more and more kids sucking themselves into the internet and whatnot. I mean, it’s really hard for me to sort of predict where this might go. But the trends that I do see are guys citing lack of role models because even when you and I were younger like we might have had bad role models.

Tucker:
None.

Jordan:
Occasionally or maybe like piss poor. Yeah, like you said, none but I think now we’re inundated with just confusion.

Tucker:
Yes.

Jordan:
Bad models and confusing ones where it tends to be like either if your parents are dysfunctional that’s like the classic situation, right? But now we’ve got like movies and media that confuse things. That’s maybe nothing new but now that everybody can be in the media, YouTube, podcasts, things like that and there’s no accountability and there’s no responsibility. I mean, a decade ago if you and I were on a show together and then somebody came on and they were like ‘You know what you need to do. You just need to punch girls in the face and tell them what’s going on.’ We would be off the air in a second or we’d have to cut it out because sponsors and the network would like ‘Hell, no.’

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
Now, you can have a freaking website dedicated to being a sex tourist and lying about it and what? You get a huge fan base.

Tucker:
Yep.

Jordan:
Of confused guys, so, I don’t know if this problem is going to get better or worse. Unfortunately, I think it’s probably going to get largely going to get worse as long as there’s money and resources in it. But I’m just hoping that guys will find things like what you and I are creating more accessible and more palatable and we don’t have to worry about quick fixes. But honestly, I find that to be largely wishful thinking on my part because who’s to say that you and I are going to create some stuff like this where guys realize they need to put in the work. It’s all about deserving what you want and going after what you want and developing that as a part of yourself. And then some other guy says ‘Yo, man screw all that. $29.95 I’ll show you exactly what to do, say, and dress like to get what you want.’ And people are always going to go for that. Not smart ones but we’ve all bought something like that at some time in our life. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of people who aren’t even confident enough in themselves to do the work in the first place so they look for the shortcut no matter what. And that, to me, is a little bit sad and I don’t know how to change it. All we can do is help the guys that have the mind to get this stuff handled for themselves and realize that it’s not going to be something they can solve by the weekend.

Tucker:
Yeah, dude, you know, it’s funny. I’m pessimistic short-term and optimistic long-term. I think you’re absolutely right. In the short-term, people are going to keep looking for quick fixes and that’s just the human mindset, you know? And a lot of people are going to get scammed etc. etc. But I think long-term, what’s going to happen is as more and more people come on the internet, I mean, like dude, mobile devices are about to get in the hands of about four billion people worldwide in the next ten years. And the devices are going to get more sophisticated.

Jordan:
Yeah.

Tucker:
And more high quality and I think, that as people develop trust networks and systems as those can be sort of not regulated by government but trust systems can develop organically then we can figure out a way, essentially, to not commodify word of mouth but to sort of spread, to make word of mouth digital, right? And, so, then that way the people with, when discovery and curation problem gets fixed.

Jordan:
Yes.

Tucker:
Which it will eventually. It will eventually, dude, because there’s billions of dollars in that solution which means someone will solve it. And once it does the highest quality best content will always rise to the surface. And so that’s why I am short-term pessimistic like kind of like you are but actually, I’m very long-term optimistic. And I think people like you who I think is generally doing good work and also generally doing good work and the people who have the right ideological sort of and moral compass, they’re all going to find work and then the ones who can actually execute the best, those will rise to the very top as it should be. You know what I’m saying?

Jordan:
Yeah, I agree with that.

Tucker:
Because I think overall, dude, here’s the crazy reality, man. There’s this idea, this narrative that most guys just want to hook up and whatever. And you know the reality? Both the empirical studies and what I’ve found in just a few short months, actually kind of moving into this space that, you know, that you’ve been in for almost a decade now is that most guys don’t actually want to be like the way that someone perceives me or some sort of player, right? Or perceives the way I used to be whatever, right? That’s not the way most guys want to be. I mean, it’s not that guys don’t want to have sex with a lot of girls. It’s that most guys actually would be really happy just having a lot of great relationships, not just with lots of different women over the course of their life but also lots of people. And like you said, ‘I see Art of Charm pivoting to relationships.’ I totally agree because you know what’s funny, man, is think about what they teach us in school. You’re taught about all these sorts of things yet, the most important thing in your life you’re not taught. What’s more important in anyone’s life than relationships?

Jordan:
Yeah, nothing.

Tucker:
Nothing.

Jordan:
I know.

Tucker:
And no one teaches it. No one does a good job teaching it. It’s funny, man, when Geoff and I started Mating Grounds we looked at this as an informational resource and it will be but we realized really quick that it also needs to be a social sort of resource. We have every intention of teaching about relationships but we thought we would have to teach about it from an information perspective and of course, I learned immediately that that’s ridiculous and it doesn’t work. We’re going to have to frame it from an emotional connective stand point as opposed to– We’ve got to put the information inside of an emotional connection as opposed to teaching people how to have emotional connections.

Jordan:
Yes. Yeah, I agree.

Tucker:
You know what I’m saying? Does that? I know you know exactly what I’m saying but dude, I think long-term man, someone’s going to solve the curation discovery problem and that means trust is going to be the highest valued thing and you’ll only gain trust by being good over time. It’s going to put all the marketers out of business, dude.

Jordan:
I’m excited for that. I mean, right now, iTunes tries to do stuff like that by ranking and like featuring and things like that. And that’s tough because it’s limited bandwidth, right? And also it’s subject to what most people like as opposed to what’s good. I mean, just look at the iTunes top 100.

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
And you’ll see some shit in there that you’re like ‘Are you kidding?’

Tucker:
Yeah.

Jordan:
But it does become, they hone that and especially once iTunes and Apple and all these smart phones get into cars you’re going, it’s going to happen with radio, right? The people who play ads every five minutes and only run the same 25 to 40 songs. I mean, they’re done. Who would ever choose that?

Tucker:
Right.

Jordan:
Given any choice whatsoever.

Tucker:
Of course.

Jordan:
Same thing’s going to happen on the internet.

Tucker:
Yeah. No, dude, I totally agree. That’s why people like you and there’s, I mean there’s a whole like – Ramit Sethi, whatever. Like, us if we pull this off correctly, those people are going to win in the end. And not because good always prevails over evil. And like I’m not telling some fairy tale because good doesn’t always win. Sometimes.

Jordan:
No, I agree.

Tucker:
Sometimes the bad guys win. But like, I mean, I invest in this space. I think about these things. That’s why if it works that’s why it’s going to work. If it doesn’t work there’s a million ways for it to fuck up and go wrong.

Jordan:
Yeah. Of course. But you’re right. At the end of the day if worse case scenario, my show was not featured anywhere on iTunes for six years. I mean, it was nowhere five to six years. Now, I realize oh, my God, you know, I had 15,000 listeners way back in the day because people told their friends even though what we were doing was produced poorly, branded even worse, and we were just kind of just generally bumbling around as newbs in the media space. We still had a following that generated over 100,000 downloads a month. Now that we actually seem to have our shit together at least in some ways, and I’m able to finally pull off an interview without sneezing, coughing, or losing track of my thoughts half the time, they’re looking at my audience has sextupled recently. And it’s like this is something that you can’t just buy the trust. You can’t.

Tucker:
You’ve got to earn it.

Jordan:
You’ve got to earn it and you put in the reps man and it’s the same thing with getting good at anything including the subject that we just talked about so we’ve just come full circle.

Tucker:
I know. And we have. It’s exactly what you said and it’s funny man, is that you don’t see any pickup artists with podcasts.

Jordan:
No. Because people go ‘Oh, this is crap.’ And they go ‘Oh, this is a lot of work I don’t want to do it,’ which is just a freaking metaphor for exactly how they live their own life.

Tucker:
Exactly, dude. Fantastic episode. Thank you for coming on. That was really informative.

Jordan:
Thanks for having me.

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