BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT
27th of October 2014

How To Be Attractive To Women, Pt. 4: How Rich Do You Need To Be? (Material Proof)

Introduction:

How much money do you need to be attractive to women? This is a question lots of guys ask, because they think having money is what women want, and for a good reason: consumerist culture has taught you that your value, your identity as a person, and your sexual ability is tied to the things you buy. The problem is that all of the actual empirical data says the opposite–women don’t actually care that much about wealth (and when they do, it’s in only specific situations). In today’s episode, Tucker and Geoff discuss how much money you really need, and what actually matters to women.

Podcast:


You can click here (right click, then click save as) to download the episode directly.

Click here to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes.
Click here to subscribe to the podcast on Stitcher.

Video:

[coming soon]

SPONSOR: This episode is sponsored by Bookhacker. They do the reading, so you don’t have to. Check them out on Amazon or Bookhacker.net.

If you want to sponsor the Mating Grounds Podcast, email [email protected].

Key takeaways:

  • Having money is attractive, but it’s just one check mark. When women rank qualities that are attractive to them, wealth basically never comes higher than 7-8th.
  • Women care about what money represents more than they care about the actual money. Having money is an indicator of intelligence, will power, ambition, social skills, networking, imagination, creativity, etc. There are other ways to signal all of those traits.
  • You can’t be dirt poor. You need to be able to afford basic necessities.
  • If you’re in college, you just need enough money that you can go out and have fun.
  • Keep in mind that in college when a woman’s looking at you as a potential boyfriend, she’s not worried about your current income, shes worried about your potential.
  • After college, you need enough money that you can have a decent car that runs reliably, an apartment that’s not physically disgusting, and you can afford to take women out so they have fun. This does not have to be exotic places.
  • It’s not what you actually have in the bank, it’s what’s apparent to the woman. So if you are rich, but you live like you’re dirt poor, that’s not going to be attractive to women.
  • Most women would much rather have an interesting, fun, attractive, middle class husband than a dull workaholic millonaire husband.
  • Keep in mind the indicators of true wealth. Are you in shape? Do you have a quality social network? Are you intelligent?
  • The best way to get women is not by investing your time and money making money, but investing your time and money in yourself. What do you look like, how do you act, what are your friends like, are you fun to be around, are you funny, have you done things that matter to the world
  • If you have to pick between being rich and being really fun and attractive to hang out with, always pick fun and attractive because that will get you 90% more women and they’ll be higher quality every time. If you have to pick. You don’t have to pick though.
  • People believe money is so important to attraction because of how modern marketing and advertising works — by making both men and women feel sexually inadequate, and by making people think that buying a specific good or service you will become more attractive to the opposite sex. That’s basically the heart of modern advertising. Consumerist culture has taught you that your value, your identity as a person, your sexual ability is tied to the things that you buy. That is empirically absolutely untrue.
  • Guys evolved to be ornamental and fun and funny and women like to have us around because we lighten their lives and we entertain them and they get genuine value out of that, and you can offer all of that even if a woman makes ten times as much money as you do. Our value to women is not principally economic.
  • In pre-history, men and women had a division of labor. It wasn’t until agriculture that men got more power. Lots of guys believe that a male dominated culture is the way we evolved, but that’s wrong, it’s a product of culture. What we are seeing now is a culture that is empowering women not to be some mythical ideal, it’s essentially getting them back to where they started in a lot of ways. There is no need to be threatened by this, and no reason to believe that women doing well trades off with you doing well — it doesn’t. Women need men, and men need women.

Links from this episode

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
Alright. So this episode of the Mating Grounds podcast, we are going to talk about material proof. Which basically means how much money do you have to have to get a girl. Alright? That’s basically the question that I think most guys want an answer. So, let’s actually start off with a question that a lot of guys never ask but actually is a very similar question. Why do women even care about money at all? Because here’s the thing Dr. Miller. Hunter gatherers didn’t have fucking money, right? So you kind of have a superficial understanding of evolution, you might think “oh well this is a contradiction of evolutionary psychology. Because hunter gatherers didn’t have money. So, if women care about money, then clearly they care about things that they didn’t evolve to care about” right? So what would you say?
Geoff:
Yeah that’s a key point. You know money, currency, gold, coins, that’s all just the last few thousand years. It’s not something we evolved with. So, it’s not like women have instincts to go after wealth per se. Women do care about resources. Right? So for at least half a million years, maybe million years the guy who was a good hunter who could literally bring home the bacon, the meat–
Tucker:
Right. Literally the bacon.
Geoff:
That resource is important. Yeah. If they are hunting wild pigs or whatever. Bacon, we are both big bacon fans. The guy who held a territory, right? A territory where good food grew and it was defensible right? That resource is sort of the prehistorical equivalent of money. So what women are really looking for is number one the practical resources they need to survive and reproduce and support their kids. But number two, money’s kind of the way we keep score in capitalism. It’s an indicator of all these other traits we’ve talked about. Right? Intelligence and will power. Those predict your earning. Not for everybody, but statistically strong correlation. So if a guy is successful economically in capitalism all else being equal, he’s probably smarter and harder working than a guy who’s a failure, right.
Tucker:
Okay. So basically I think your point is, it’s not about money, it’s about what money represents.
Geoff:
Yeah, what money says about you in terms of your traits as a man
Tucker:
Your genetic traits, your social traits, all kinds of things right?
Geoff:
Yeah. Good genes, good partner, good dad. But also just pragmatically it’s not about the money. It’s what the money can buy for the woman.
Tucker:
Right.
Geoff:
At a very basic level like health insurance and a roof over her head.
Tucker:
Right. So this is a big thing. I see a lot of young guys. A lot of young guys will say to me “oh you know, whatever man, like this stuff you are teaching is cool and I learn a lot but like, I don’t think it really matters because I think you know, girls only care about money and power and fame”. And I sigh and I’m like “alright dude. Yes, fame matters, fame’s a very different thing. But you know there’s virtually no guys who are famous”. So money and power yeah. But it’s not money. Like you wouldn’t believe how many guys I know who are fuck ass wealthy. I mean like, they have their own planes and shit right? And they own buildings and they are billionaires. I know a couple of billionaires actually. I mean, I know quite a few but I know a few billionaires who are terrible with women and basically don’t get girls or the type of women they get are really awful gold diggers and they hate it. Or even if they get pretty decent women in terms of the scale of gold diggers, those guys feel super inadequate and don’t like it because they know those women are with them because they have money and no other reason. That they don’t give a fuck about them at all. They only care about their money. And so I try to explain this to young guys. Money, here’s the thing. It’s not that money doesn’t matter. It’s that money is only an indicator of other things and that money is only important like if you are really poor or really rich. I think that’s something you’ve talked about before.
Geoff:
Yeah. And this is why earned money matters so much more to women than wind fall money right? If you are a total slacker and you win the lottery and suddenly you are worth 200 million dollars, that will absolutely corrode your self esteem because every woman you meet, you’ll be wondering, “is she just after me for the money?” And if you know you’ve got nothing else to offer, that’s like the worse.
Tucker:
There are studies on this right? Like same guys with like you are sitting here and there’s woman’s like oh you earned this money, you inherited or you won it, and they rate them differently.
Geoff:
Absolutely, yeah. So earned money, particularly earned through your own talent or entrepreneurship, that’s really attractive. But if you just inherit it that kind of says something about your parents earning capacity but that might not reflect on you.
Tucker:
Right.
Geoff:
So women are seeing your material proof, your wealth and your signals of wealth often as you know just reliable signals of intelligence, ambition, social skills, networking, imagination, creativity. All that cool stuff. And there are other ways to signal all those traits other than wealth.
Tucker:
Okay. So let’s give guys a very clear specific framework to work in. So what money matters? Like let’s talk dollars. Like literally fucking dollars right? So below what level matters, you know of what matter, like what ranges are okay, about what range, you know what I’m talking about? Give me something to anchor on with dollars.
Geoff:
Well in current American society, there’s basically different kind of cut points right? And it matters what age you are a lot. So if you are a 20 year old college student, and you are dating other college students, you know the main thing that matters then is kind of do you have enough money to go out and have fun? Okay? She’s not looking to can you afford a mortgage, she probably doesn’t want a baby in the next year. It’s basically do you have enough to go out and have fun. And that doesn’t mean expensive dinners.
Tucker:
All she cares about is if you are buying the drinks or she’s buying the drinks. If she has to buy the drinks all the time, she’s going to be a little bit annoyed, but if you have enough money to buy drinks, basically it’s fine.
Geoff:
Yeah. And I went to college in New York, so I didn’t need a car. Nobody needed a car. If you are in a rural community like whatever Middlebury college. Okay maybe you need a car to have fun. But basically if you can date effectively and entertain a women that’s enough money.
Tucker:
These are about in college age.
Geoff:
In college yeah.
Tucker:
23 and below, whatever 22. Now above that. Now what matters?
Geoff:
Well, and also bear in mind in college when a woman’s looking at you, you know, as a potential boy friend, and that’s going to happen even if you are just a one night stand for her. She’s not really worried about your current income. She’s sort of mentally extrapolating your trajectory, your future like “what’s he going to be like in 10 years?” Women do that right?
Tucker:
Yes.
Geoff:
Is he going to be a successful doctor or is he going to be a bum? And if she can imagine “oh you are going to be a cool doctor, lawyer, professor” whatever. Even if you have no money right now, that’s more of a turn on than having some windfall money right now.
Tucker:
And fuck, that’s how I got laid in law school.
Geoff:
Exactly.
Tucker:
I mean basically listen. I’m decent looking, charismatic, funny whatever right? But so were all my friends and so were a lot of guys, you know. So I went to Duke for law school and Duke’s an awful, awful place. It’s in Durham, which is a total shit hole. The only good thing about Durham is that it’s 15 minutes from Chapel Hill. Which is amazing. Because it’s 65% girls, 35% guys and the girls were all young, wonderful, beautiful, fun southern girls and the guys were all these douchey, ridiculous, entitled, doughy frat boys. Southern frat boys. So they all think “well, I’m Carlton Wintweather the third and my daddy has owned you know six tobacco companies”. “Look, get the fuck out of here dude, no one gives a shit” right? And so like I would show up there on Franklin Street and it was like “oh yeah, I go to Duke Law School”. And then it’s like every girls antenna– it doesn’t mean they automatically want to fuck me. But now, I was automatically more attractive than all those fucking douches at UNC because they were in college and I was in not just at grad school, but law school. Which is a major indicator. I haven’t earned a fucking dollar yet, in fact I got fired from my first job as a lawyer, but didn’t matter. Because I had a major indicator of future earning potential which is a proxy for genetic fitness, intelligence etc. etc.
Geoff:
And guys, it’s not that the women are looking at the lawyer as “oh that’ll be awesome because there’ll be all these luxuries and exotic holidays in yachts”.
Tucker:
In fact being a lawyers’ wife sucks actually. The reality.
Geoff:
Because lawyers have to work so fucking hard.
Tucker:
Exactly.
Geoff:
Right. 60 hours a week whatever.
Tucker:
But they are not thinking about that.
Geoff:
But rather they are thinking very high probability of financial security, enough money to have a family. Enough. Not luxuries, but enough.
Tucker:
And more importantly he got into law school. He’s smart, he’s socially capable. He’s you know, like his chances of success are very high etc. etc. It’s my future earning potential as a signal of good things about me. In fact dude the reality is, lawyers are generally awful people to be around. Terrible husbands, they are never around. You don’t actually make that much money given you know the facts of the situation are very different attraction is not always based on facts, all right? So if you are in college, what matters is you have enough money to actually do the things you care about. Like going out and drinking eating at Chipotle whatever and you seem like you are in a good trajectory which combine a bunch of other things we’ve talked about in terms of traits that we know are attracted to. Intelligence, ambitious, conscientiousness etc. So but whether you do it or not is kind of irrelevant because you are in college. Okay cool. Now out of college. I’m 24, let’s slap some dollar values on it. So what matters?
Geoff:
Basically you need enough that, in America, that you’ve got a decent car that runs reliably, you have an apartment that’s not physically disgusting. You can afford condoms. And you know, you can take women out so that they have fun. Not that you take them faraway to exotic places that they never imagined being able to go. Like space tours is going to be a thing in 5 years, right?
Tucker:
Right.
Geoff:
And there’s going to be a certain small minority of women, who are like, “well unless you take–”
Tucker:
“I’ll fuck a guy who…”
Geoff:
“Unless you take me into orbit, I’m not going to date you.” But you generally don’t have to worry about that. What the women are really concerned about is, by that age women will have already dated a couple of losers. They’ll have experience. The boyfriend who moves in with them, loses his job, eats all their food.
Tucker:
Probably the college boyfriend who’s cool in college and is now a loser in the real world.
Geoff:
And didn’t get his act together and that’s just a bummer. That women don’t feel sexually attracted to men who would drain on them in terms of resources.
Tucker:
In fact you are repulsed by them.
Geoff:
It’s kind of sexually disgusting.
Tucker:
Disgusting
Geoff:
Yeah.
Tucker:
So the first point I think you are making is a very good one. You cannot be dirt poor. Like here’s the things I think guys, it’s not that you have to be rich. And we are not talking about upper limits or anything. But on a lower limit if you are a dirt ass fucking poor that’s not just unattractive. Or that’s not just you won’t be attractive. That is actively unattractive to women. If you are so fucked up that you cannot afford basic necessities, man you got to really knock the other shit out of the park you know, to do well with women.
Geoff:
And bear in mind that important thing is, it’s not what you actually have in the bank. It’s what’s apparent to the woman. So if you are rich, but your fridge has like nothing good to eat in it and your bed sheets suck right? Thread count is inadequate.
Tucker:
Living under a bridge.
Geoff:
And you don’t offer the cues of resources that women pay attention to that are emotionally compelling to them. Like food is really important to females of all species. Right? If there’s not enough–
Tucker:
Deep, deep, unconscious.
Geoff:
Primal physiological women. Even if the woman’s on a diet she won’t be happy with you. Because her body is telling her this guys not providing me that food. So you better have at least you are well stocked. Larder and fridge and.
Tucker:
Hold on. You are not saying anything like you have to have a lot of food in your fridge. Because I know that some 22 year olds are going to listen to this. They go oh, I got to go to whole foods and put a bunch of stuff in my fridge. No, no. That’s not what you are saying. I think your point is, whatever it is you have should be well taken care of and you are able to provide a base level of resources. Look, when I was 24 I had nothing in my fridge. Girls came over and fucked me all the time, they didn’t look in my fridge, because I was 24, they were 24. They don’t care whatever right? So that’s maybe I think, let’s not get too specific on that because guys will misunderstand it. But your point is, if she’s hungry and you can’t get food for her because you don’t have any money, even if it’s like, I’m not saying you are both starving homeless people. She could have plenty of money, but the fact that you really can’t buy her shit or it’s like “oh, you know, maybe we should go to McDonalds because I can’t afford Fridays” or something. Then that’s fucking repulsive. That’s really bad.
Geoff:
Let me give a specific example. Like when I was a grad student in Palo Alto, I live in a shared house. The guy in the next bedroom over was an integrated chip designer, who made, and this is back in the day, this is like the late 80s. He made a 120,000 a year.
Tucker:
Jesus
Geoff:
Yeah. And he paid like 4000 a year in rent. He slept on a like the shittiest futon you can imagine
Tucker:
Right.
Geoff:
He had like no clothes. And his life goal.
Tucker:
Because he’s an engineer.
Geoff:
And he already had half a million dollars in the bank. I kid you not. His life goal was, “I’m going to get a million dollars, retire to Tahiti by age 32 and then have a life”. And then he’s like “but I don’t have a girl friend that’s frustrating”. So it’s not the money in the bank. It’s the fact that he looks like he’s dirt poor and he offers a life style that no self respecting woman would ever want.
Tucker:
That’s actually a perfect segue to the next part of this conversation. So the take away from that would be have enough money that you don’t look dirt fucking poor. Which in America you could pull off maybe depending on where you live, 25 grand a year, you know 30 grand a year. Seriously, you can. I mean like I can fucking detail this shit if anyone doesn’t — It’s not hard in America especially in certain parts of the country. New York like good luck right? But I live in Austin, Texas. I mean you can live in Austin. I think our podcast producer Jason. I think he basically makes what do I pay him, I pay him in rubber bands and shit. Rubber bands and Lecroy or some shit right? But he does pretty well. You know, he has a decent place. It’s not amazing, but it’s not bad, it’s not a hovel. He doesn’t live under a bridge. It’s clean. It’s a place you could take a girl back to. You can live 25-30 grand.
Geoff:
Yeah. We are going to have a whole podcast sort of on like where to live and how to choose where to live and don’t just–
Tucker:
Mating markets.
Geoff:
Don’t just live the same place you went to college right?
Tucker:
Yeah, yeah.
Geoff:
Be proactive about where do I get the most bang for my buck economically in terms of the mating market etc.
Tucker:
So that’s the lower bound. You just kind of segued into the upper bound. And the upper bound is sort of look, here it is. If you take nothing else from this podcast, take this. Most women would much rather have an interesting, fun, attractive, middle class husband than a dull workaholic millionaire husband. Like that guy you just described, I’ve never heard that sort of view before. That guy you just described, think about his mental model for a minute. He’s operating under the assumption that if I have a million dollars, period, women will then find me attractive. Which is fucking wrong, correct?
Geoff:
Yeah. There are no instincts in a woman’s brain or body that go oh, his bank account statement magically turns me on even in the absence of any other cues of prosperity or a talent.
Tucker:
Exactly. Whereas, if the guy is in good shape, is funny, has a lot of friends, take any women and I’m just going to describe three things. He’s funny, he’s in good shape and he has a lot of friends. Every woman immediately is like at least I could be potentially attracted to that guy. Whereas if you say okay, this guy lives on a ratty futon. Wears like fucking Salvation Army clothes, but has a million dollars. Like they are going to look around and like “ugh is he tall”. Like they ask, beg for other reasons to be into him. Because that will never, ever, ever alone make women into you. It can absolutely get you laid with awful women who will try and take your wealth. It will not help you find a women you want to have any sort of relationship with even short term. Even a short term relationship. The best sex is someone you like, you have a connection with, etc. etc. That guy’s mental model of attraction was totally wrong and a lot of guys share that mental model and it is the opposite of what you should be doing. If you want a different mental model, I think the other mental model, the reverse, the 360 degree mental model away from that, actually it’ll be 180 degrees right? Not 360 degrees. 180 degrees away is Tim Ferriss’s 4 Hour Work Week. Now 4 Hour Work Week is one of the first books that really sort of describe the idea that you don’t work to retire, you work to enjoy your life in the moment, right? And the book is very much about entrepreneurship and start ups and creating, you know designing a life you want. Which is like neither here nor there for our discussion. Although it does apply. It’s not directly applicable. Here’s a lesson though that Tim, I think taught the world. If you focus on the things that matter to you now you’ll be much happier, which is true right? And the same lesson is true for attractiveness in women. Women care about, once you hit the base minimal levels of survival shit, you know, you can offer food, shelter, clothing, transportation. At that point those things aren’t irrelevant but they are not super important indicators of attractiveness.
Geoff:
And bear in mind what are the indicators of true wealth. Like your ability to take care of a woman and potential babies. Back in the day, back in prehistory lean body mass, how big is your body, how strong it is, it takes energy and investment to grow a big capable body.
Tucker:
Are you in shape?
Geoff:
So if a guy is rich in terms of money, but he’s super skinny and he’s wasting away and looks like–
Tucker:
Looks like a concentration camp victim or something.
Geoff:
Or a vegan.
Tucker:
A vegan even better. Without being offensive. Vegan.
Geoff:
He’s giving the unconscious cues to women. To women that he’s literally poor in biological terms. Second form of wealth, your social network. How strong is your clan, your tribe?
Tucker:
Not twitter followers. Actual people you talk to.
Geoff:
Actual people who could support you if the chips were down and you needed help.
Tucker:
Yeah.
Geoff:
Right. So if you are a rich guy, but you are a loner that to a women signals, if a catastrophe happens, nobody’s going to help this guy or me if I’m his girl friend.
Tucker:
And signals he’s probably a mental problems, because who doesn’t have friends, that’s weird. He might not be intelligent etc. etc. So it signals a lot of anti attraction qualities essentially.
Geoff:
So if you have a big social network and you are plugged into them and you do things for them so they are grateful to you and you develop emotional connections.
Tucker:
Intelligence is another way.
Geoff:
That’s a fundamental form of social wealth that women really pay attention to.
Tucker:
You’re talking about pre-history attractors — intelligence. I mean we’ve had look at the podcast in the past, this is what we talked about. Intelligence is another one that basically describes how well you can operate in the world and do all these things.
Geoff:
How much value have you stored in your brain literally?
Tucker:
How good is your mental model of reality? Like that engineers’ mental model of reality, at least with women and attraction. It’s not just wrong, it’s actually anti attractive.
Geoff:
And if he’d invested even like 5% as much effort in understanding women as understanding integrated chip design,
Tucker:
You probably would’ve figured out the basics.
Geoff:
Yeah.
Tucker:
Although actually no. Because that’s part of the reason we started Mating Grounds. Because there really aren’t good resources out there that accurately and sort of empirically describe what guys need to be doing. That’s I think is a hugely important takeaway lesson guys. If you just make your goal to get rich, first of all you are not likely to be successful with women doing that and if you are they are not likely to be the type of women you want to be successful with. That is the fucking reality. It seems crazy. But you have not probably heard this anywhere else. I’m telling you right now, the best way to get laid is not by investing your time and money, making money. But investing time and money in yourself. What do I look like, how do I act, what are my friends like, am I fun to be around, am I funny, have I done things that matter to the world? You know, you can do a lot of things that will make you 50, 100, 200 grand a year, but will be a 100 times more attractive than guys making millions of dollars a year. A fucking bond trader no woman gives a shit. All she cares about, “oh he’s attractive, oh he’s rich”. Which is attractive. Make no mistake about it. Having money is one check mark. But it’s about the 5th-8th thing down the list. I mean if you got nothing else going for you, good luck dude.
Geoff:
Yeah. In the top ten list of what women want in guys, there are so many studies on this. Wealth, like it never comes higher than about 7th or 8th.
Tucker:
Yeah.
Geoff:
And bear in mind top 2, kindness, intelligence, sense of humor, adaptability, emotional stability–
Tucker:
Physical attributes. Exactly.
Geoff:
And also bear in mind. In consumerist capitalism–
Tucker:
Hold on. We’ll get to that in a second. Hold on, hold on. The one I think I want to leave off is a good example of why, everything we are talking about. We are going to talk about this maybe even later too. Study after study after study. This is basically not a negotiable or not an arguable thing in sort of happiness psychology. The best way to be happy is to spend your money on experiences, and not things. This is going to be the segue into consumerist capitalism. Over and over and over. Spending money on things you do with people, experiences. Travel, restaurants, fucking base jumping, sky diving, hiking whatever. Things with people. Not usually even alone. Things with people, shared experiences. The quality of shared experience are the number one of predictor of happiness and relatability in relationships right? And guys don’t understand this. They don’t understand this at all. But we’ve said it over and over in podcast and I’m telling you now if you have money at all, and you want to impress women, first invest in yourself. And get your shit together. Once you have your shit together, even mediocre or mildly have your shit together then start investing in experiences with women take them not just spending money at a good dinner. That’s nice, that’s great. But I’m telling you right now. Women would much rather you take them to Macaroni Grill, then El Molino. El Molino for those of you who you know, eat McDonalds every day, Macaroni Grill’s basically a chain restaurant, kind of shitty. El Molino is one of the best Italian restaurants in the world. So, and the price is literally ten times the price to go to El Molino as Macaroni Grill. If you take her to Macaroni Grill and then be funny and interesting on the date, and then take her to like mini golf or something really cool. Even more cool than mini golf, whatever. Some awesome fucking sort of thing. That’s way better than taking her to El Molino and being a boring, rich shit head. The Macaroni Grill date, that’s fun and exciting, is going to get you laid all the time. That El Molino date that where you are the boring rich guy is going to get you laid almost none of the time. And I said that in the crassest terms to beat it into your fucking young idiot heads. I can’t say this enough. And so few guys understand this. Guys, this is why you see guys out there who are getting tons of ass and you don’t understand why. They are fun and interesting and attractive to women. They might be poor shit heads, but they are doing all those other things right and you are not. Guys used to say this about me all the time. I used to see this all the time. These fucking dudes were like “I don’t understand. He’s a fucking bum, he’s an asshole, he’s this, he’s that. Like I do all these things and I have this job, and I have this car”. And I’m like, “it doesn’t matter dude. I engage with a women in the way she wants to be engaged with. You are doing bull shit she doesn’t care about. I mean it’s that fucking simple man”. Alright, we’ll stop that rant. I’m sorry
Geoff:
To continue that rant, I had so many dates with women in New York. Successful, bright, professional women. Who complained bitterly about the New York guys they would date. Who were also bright, successful, professional guys making way more money than me. But they had no personality. They were working 60 hours a week, they couldn’t talk about anything other than either how they spent their money or how they made it. And the women were bored to tears, they hated it. No matter how good the food is, how good the service is, where they are, how high status, the restaurant or the activity or whatever. If the company you are with sucks, then the date sucks.
Tucker:
Yes.
Geoff:
Will they go back and brag to their girl friends about where they were taken? Maybe. But then girlfriends are going to ask what’s he like? What was he like?
Tucker:
Exactly.
Geoff:
Was he funny?
Tucker:
You know what’s funny. So by the way how many podcasts have we had with like PhD doctor amazing female researchers. Dr. Bondar, Dr. Berlin, I mean go down the list right? And we talk and once they kind of warm up in the interviews they start talking about things guys do wrong. And they all start talking about these guys who think they can spend money and that’s all they have to do to impress them. Like my favorite story of the whole podcast so far is Dr. Bondar’s story about the guy who rented the house in Mexico and shipped down his fucking stereo equipment. And she literally says, I don’t know why he thought this would impress us, he was such an obnoxious shit and he’s like, he’d brag oh I went at the beach this and that and fuck these people and she’s like I could not have been less attracted to this guy whereas before I was like “oh maybe he has his stuff together. He did all these things, that’s cool”. I mean these are– Dr. Bondar’s hotter than fire, these are really attractive really intelligent, really accomplished women, these are like the highest status women you can find. Scientists saying the same shit, they say it about the research and they say about the personal life over and over and over and over and over. We kind of keep repeating this. Because it’s so important and so few guys get it. So important.
Geoff:
And even worse, those professional women if they think that a guy is basically trying to spend his way into their pants, that creeps them out, that actually makes them feel like “he’s treating me like a whore” literally.
Tucker:
Right.
Geoff:
The more money he spends, and the less interesting the is, the more he’s like a prostitutes John and the more transactional it feels and then even if they go sleep with him, they feel horrible about themselves afterwards.
Tucker:
You speak in general how it is, we didn’t talk about that when we interviewed but like, it breaks down to this. Let me say this actually though. Now by the way, here’s the thing. Not saying money doesn’t matter. Because if you take a girl to a great restaurant and you spend a bunch of money and you are awesome. Okay, that’s the best. More matters. Let’s not, I don’t live in a fantasy world. Money fucking matters and look, if you can do all those things, that’s amazing. But if you have to pick between being rich and being really fun and attractive to hang out with, always pick fun and attractive because that will get you 90% more women and they’ll be higher quality every time. If you have to pick. You don’t have to pick though, I don’t think. But, whatever. So now let’s jump into why guys feel this way. Because we’ve talked about sort of why wealth matters, why money matters to women and then how women interact with money and see it, and we got the things guys are getting wrong. But my question sort of, it’s not my question. But I think the question a lot of guys should be asking right now is, well why do we feel this way? Like guys aren’t stupid, but they feel that way for a reason. So why is that?
Geoff:
Because they grow up with advertising, basically. I mean I cover this a lot in my book “Spent: Sex, Evolution, and Consumer Behavior”. Right? It kind of analyzes how modern marketing works. And it works largely by making both men and women feel sexually inadequate. Like I need to buy this good or this service in order to attract the other sex. That’s basically the heart of modern advertising for almost everything. Even goods that’s seem practical. Shampoo right. It’s never really this shampoo actually cleans your hair better.
Tucker:
It makes you sexier.
Geoff:
It’s about the branding, and the style and it’s so associated with a certain life style and it’s associated with a certain kind of mate you are supposed to be able to get.
Tucker:
Which are all sort of high attraction to the opposite sex. Lifestyles, images, portrayals, all of them.
Geoff:
And I’ve done market research consulting with a lot of different companies and what they all want is whether they are selling chewing gum or you know the shampoo or cars, whatever. It’s all about how do we get, particularly that golden demographic which means single men 18 to 30, the guys who are willing to spend a higher proportion of their income on status goods than any other group because they are trying to attract women. How do we get those guy to think our product is the coolest, meaning the most attractive to women.
Tucker:
Yeah.
Geoff:
So you have literally hundreds of thousands of market researchers trying to figure out how to hack your psychology to make you A, feel sexually inadequate now. And B, feel like if I buy your shit, I will get more women.
Tucker:
So there’s a great movie about, a documentary about this called the “Century of the Self”. It’s about how it basically what’s relevant to this discussion happens is basically, this is all because of Sigmund Freud’s nephew, Edward Bernays. Not just because of him. He’s kind of like the focal point. But essentially the history of advertising in the western world is pretty interesting. It boils down to literally Sigmund Freud’s nephew took Freud’s’ ideas and essentially, he worked on the world war 1 propaganda board and a couple of guys like who wrote “Public Opinion” Walter Lippman, it’s great book “Public Opinion”. Walter Lippman and Edward Bernays were two of the big ones. And they basically thought the average person was stupid and that we had to be manipulated through media signals. Those are the first ones to really understand how mass media works. And before Bernays, advertising, after World War 1, he set up a shop on Madison Avenue. The reason Madison Avenue is considered advertising avenue is because of Bernays. Advertising before Bernays was basically “here’s our products, here’s the attributes it has, here’s what it’ll do for you”. Like the car will go faster and use less gas, or whatever right? Bernays rejected fact based advertising. Because he understood that people didn’t make decisions based on fact they made decisions made on emotions and you had to appeal to deep unconscious needs. This is all Freud’s work. It’s exactly what we are talking to you guys about too but from a different perspective. We are trying to help you. Bernays is exploiting you, to get paid by a large corporations. And what Bernays realized was exactly what you just said. If I make people feel sexually inadequate or if I make them feel that they are sexually unattractive and my product is the key to them being adequate or attractive to the opposite sex, then they will buy it regardless of what it is or how shitty it is or how much it costs. That’s Edward Bernays. You can read “Propaganda”, you can read a couple of his other books we’ll link them all on the podcast page on the MatingGrounds.com site.
Geoff:
Also that guy Vance Packard in the 50s had great insight.
Tucker:
Packard is another guy.
Geoff:
In fact a lot of my dissertations were kind of inspired by reading Vance Packard. Analyzing the wastefulness of modern consumerism. And then I just kind of applied it to like human brain evolution. That’s a whole other story.
Tucker:
So basically guys if you feel this way, that you have to make money to get women it’s because it’s been programmed into you buy media since birth. So don’t feel bad. You are not stupid. You really are not. This is the smartest on earth have spent billions of dollars to make you think this way alright? So relax. It’s not a big deal and you can stop thinking this way basically immediately if you want.
Geoff:
Yeah. For example Apple right, Apple computer. Brand equity worth about a 100, 120 billion dollars. What is the meaning of that value? Basically it’s the Apple like Tucker’s got a little Apple iPad on the desk here. Apple has spent billions of dollars associating that little Apple logo with “I’m cool, I’m highly open, I’m a little more intelligent than the typical like IBN PC user”
Tucker:
And you know it because I have an Apple.
Geoff:
Exactly. And that’s the reason why the Apple logo is facing outwards to the audience rather than towards the person using it right? It’s a signal.
Tucker:
We are going to get a signal. It’s like, we are going to give you a little lesson in branding. Because branding and signaling, what we had on our episode in signaling which is really good, you guys if you haven’t listened to it, go listen to the signaling episode, but branding, listen, I make a lot of money every year advising companies just like you do. Advising companies I do more branding marketing research you do more sort of a psychological consumer behavior style. But what branding is, is about telling a story to the world about who you are, and a story to yourself about who you are right? That’s exactly what you just kind of described right? Consumerist capitalism, consumerist culture. I don’t want to say consumerist capitalism. Capitalism is just a marketing mechanism. Consumerist culture has taught you that your value, your identity as a person, your sexual ability is tied to the things that you buy. That is empirically absolutely untrue. I would tell you if it was true. I’d be like look, earn more money and you’ll get laid. Like I don’t have an agenda I’m not trying to, I’m not pushing one thing or the other. I’m trying to help you get better with women, the evidence is clear as day, my anecdotal experience is clear as day, the research is clear as day. The opposite of what consumer capitalism teaches you is true. And you know the easiest way to see this is to understand if it was, they wouldn’t have to trick me if what they were selling wasn’t bull shit. That’s why they have to do this you know?
Geoff:
If the guys who hung out in the coffee shops with their Apple iPads were attracting twice as many women as the guys without the Apple iPads–
Tucker:
Everyone will have it.
Geoff:
The word would spread. Like we would know. Instead what tends to happen is, there’s all these guys sitting there and thinking, well I’ve seen a bunch of Apple commercials and women are supposed to be approaching me because my little Apple air book is so cool, and they’re not. Why not? Because you think apple’s signaling your openness and your intelligence. But if you went up and talk to a woman, she would discern your openness and your intelligence within the first 10 seconds.
Tucker:
Yeah. Or minute, whatever.
Geoff:
A minute, yeah. And so–
Tucker:
So your interaction is overridden, or the branding’s overridden by your actual personality.
Geoff:
Yeah.
Tucker:
And as soon as she starts talking to you, she will automatically assess all your traits anyway. And all the consumerist knick knacks you surrounded yourself with, suddenly don’t matter to her. They never did matter but they matter even less now.
Geoff:
Right. Exactly. Now understand. If you have money and you have taste, aesthetic ability which is actually our next podcast “aesthetics”. You can signal to women those things, through the things you buy, absolutely and that shit does work. But all it does is get a girl interested in you and potentially attracted to you. So for instance I drive a BMW like 640i. It’s a really nice looking car. I’m not really a car person. I don’t really care that much, I can’t tell you anything else about the car, it’s actually not that expensive. It’s relatively expensive and it’s really nice looking and I like driving it, great. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve pulled up and like girls stare at the car. They do, it works man, because it signals wealth, it signals status, it signals, more importantly it signals aesthetic sense. Because I could’ve spent that 80 grand on about any number of cars right? I could’ve bought whatever, a Ferrari. That car is understated, relatively at least as far as expensive cars go, it’s really elegant, etc. etc. It signals taste. Not just richness right? Alright. So now I don’t want to make it seem like I drive a Toyota Corolla, because I don’t. I have money, I use it, it’s fine. It’s not that using the money you have is bad. It’s not that you can’t use money to make yourself more attractive. It’s that you need to understand what actually matters and what moves the needle with women. And at best you can use money to buy things that show women, things about you that signal attractive traits about you. That’s the best you can do with money and that will help a lot. But it will not overcome the fact that you are dull, shitty, out of shape etc. If those things are true. And the reason you feel like money’s the most important thing is because the consumerist culture has taught you that, but women don’t actually respond to that guys, they really don’t. They really, really don’t. I can’t tell you that enough. Alright. So let’s shift to female economic autonomy. I think this is a pretty important issue. I think, because the world’s changed a lot. Like if we’ve done this podcast 10 years ago or 20 years ago even aside from all the amazing amount of research that current sets in, this section of the podcast would be a little bit different. So let’s talk about last 5-10 years. Really 10 years. What major social societal shifts have we seen in sort of economic distributions of wealth across sexes etc.? And what does this mean?
Geoff:
One major thing is women are graduating from college at substantially higher rates than men.
Tucker:
A lot.
Geoff:
You can just see it like in my class rooms, some of the men are showing up as freshmen, a lot of them are dropping out within the first couple of years because frankly they don’t work hard enough and the women are kind of pulling ahead definitely in terms of education. They are quickly catching up in terms of earning power. You know there’s a lot of rhetoric about “oh women only earn 70 cents on the dollar”. It’s bull shit. It’s not true.
Tucker:
We’ll link some of Christina Hoff Sommers stuff. It’s just not empirically true.
Geoff:
Yeah. Single women working compared to single men, same age same education working they make pretty much exactly the same amount. So women have economic power and autonomy in a way that they haven’t had since prehistory.
Tucker:
Exactly.
Geoff:
Since prehistory. Women evolved to have a lot of economic autonomy.
Tucker:
So by the way, hold on. Let’s stop there for a second and examine that point since prehistory. There are a lot of people. And I’m not taking about feminists or the left. I’m talking about manosphere writers who think that men, they hearken back to pre history because their understanding of prehistory is that women were not autonomous at all were under direct control of men all the time and in their mind that’s a justification for whatever ridiculous patriarchal theory. I hate the fact that I’m attacking the patriarchy based on these clowns. Because it’s like, let’s talk about that for a second. From everything we know, how accurate are those theories?
Geoff:
They are like 80% bull shit. Because prehistoric women are going out and gathering plant foods with their sisters and their friends and they are providing often the bulk of the calories they are largely self sustaining, now the boyfriends are useful. The boyfriends go and hunt big game, they bring back meat and meat’s super valuable. It fuels you know the evolution of the brain, it’s really helpful. But you know what. Often those hunters are coming back and they didn’t get the gazelle, and they are hungry and exhausted and then what? They have to ask the women “hey can you feed me please? I’m so hungry. It’s so depressing the gazelle got away.” And so the men are often on a kind of day to day basis kind of more dependent on women than vice versa. Now of course the women want guys who can bring back the meat and protect the and hold good territories. That’s super useful, but it was a division of labor. A division of labor. It’s not the men doing everything economically important. The women also do lots that’s really economically important. But then you get agriculture and land and wealth, and then the men get more power, more wealth, they start to dominate the women. And what we are seeing with modern society is basically just more of a return to like a sexually equal division of labor where the women can take care of themselves and men become what they always were.
Tucker:
This is a super important point I want to focus on right now. I think we talked about this in sort of the podcast we were talking about pick up artist and manosphere stuff. Believe it or not guys, patriarchy, like if you hear whatever like sort of male dominated, male controlled society is a product of culture an agriculture not the way we evolved. And again I don’t have a fucking agenda with this, I’m telling you this is what the evidence says. If I had to pick a side clearly most guys are going to pick a side of “oh, we are the most important things and we are in charge all the time”, that’s not the facts man. Like facts are fucking facts and none of the genetic evidence, none of the anthropological evidence, none of the sociological evidence, none of the evolutionary evidence, none of it points to a highly sexually dimorphic society where men controlled everything and women were essentially just their vessels for reproduction. That’s just not true and if you want to believe that you are going to live a very angry lonely, sad life. Now on the other hand, going the full other way, of course is just as bad for other reasons. The reality is, men and women evolved very different but very much equal in a lot of ways. And what we are seeing now is a culture that is empowering women not to be something that they are striving for or some mythical ideal, it’s essentially getting them back to where they started in a lot of ways. That’s a very important point right? And now the important thing is, I know a lot of guys are threatened by this. Okay? They are threatened by female power, or female power or female success. Guys don’t be, like really don’t be. There’s really no reason you need to feel like women doing well trades off with you doing well. It doesn’t. Women need men, men need women, end of story.
Geoff:
In fact it’s a way of denigrating yourself to imagine the only thing that a woman wants from you is wealth and material support. As if you have nothing else to offer.
Tucker:
You are a dick with a checking account.
Geoff:
No, no. I mean the whole point of my “Mating Mind” book and the “Spent” book is to try to remind guys we evolved to be ornamental and fun and funny and women like to have us around because we lighten their lives and we entertain them and they get genuine value out of that. Our value to women is not principally economic. It’s sort of entertainment, it’s great sex, it’s companionship.
Tucker:
Protectiveness.
Geoff:
And you can offer all of that even if a woman makes literally ten times as much money as you do.
Tucker:
You’ve been in a situation where your wife made more money than you right?
Geoff:
Yeah, when I started dating Rosalind my ex-wife you know I was a post-doc making hardy enough to live on and she was a successful TV science producer. Like making films for BBC and Channel 4 London and making way more money than me. And had a great flat and a great car and I quickly realized, “oh my gosh my role in her life is to be interesting and funny”, and that’s enough. It’s not demeaning to have that role, it takes a lot of talent. But maybe some guys are kind of threatened by that and they think. “Oh the only value I can offer is making more money than the woman”. It’s not true. Women are adapting to their economic autonomy, they are quickly in realizing “oh my god, men still have value to me even though I’m not economically dependent on them”.
Tucker:
I don’t know any women who are like man– I know a lot of really rich, really successful, really powerful women. And I can think of less than 10% who think that they are happy in their life without a man. And those 10% who think that are usually actually pretty fucking miserable.
Geoff:
Yeah.
Tucker:
They are like, I don’t know–in fact–Usually the more successful, and the more capable the woman is, the more she wants a man who is just as successful and capable as her. Doesn’t mean you have to be financially successful. You just have to be good at whatever it is you do. I have been in the same situation you are talking about, just not married. I’m not now, just because I made a lot of money whatever. But my girlfriend now makes a lot of money. She has her own company, she does really, really well. She doesn’t need me for any of that stuff at all. She wants me because we provide a lot to each other and we are both very attracted to each other emotional, intellectual, humor all this sort of stuff, companionship. But I would say man for the majority of my adult life, I haven’t had a lot of money. I really started making money the last 6-7 years. 38 now, so like my early 30s I started getting real cheques for my writing and working, before then, so like 24 -25. I got out of school 25. So 25 to 30, I had no money, basically. Effectively none I was over the threshold where I could eat usually and I could live somewhere that’s not a cardboard box, but I had no money. How many girls have I fucked in that 5 years? I don’t know, a lot. Quite a few, more than I could even count. Because I had all those other things nailed. Funny, outgoing, socially intelligent, tons of friends, interesting etc. etc. etc. All these sorts of thing. Again my strategy was very unique to me. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it specifically to a lot of guys. If you don’t have any resources you’ve got to be really good at those other things and I am. But that’s the fucking point.
Geoff:
And guys another great thing about professional women making money is that think about it rationally from their point of view. If you are the kind of boyfriend who is emotionally supportive of their career and kind of give some little nudges and useful advice and helps them have the guts to like finally break free and start their own business or actually monetize some skill that they have. That’s worth so much more to them just on a purely monetary level than you making twice as much as you used to. And that’s another thing I realized dating in New York there are all these professional women who are kind of like a little bit stuck in a dead end job or they want to go for a promotion but they don’t have the confidence. If you actually listen to their career anxieties and concerns and just show some empathy and give just a little bit of useful guidance, that’s golden. That is actually more valuable to them than you taking them out to super expensive restaurants or holidays or whatever.
Tucker:
My girlfriend started her company. She was literally thinking about it, she had the idea for a while. Started the company, not because of me, she already had the idea. She wanted to do it. She just hadn’t taken the leap. Like in the first month, two months, of us talking. Like it was actually one of the things I found most attractive about her in the beginning. Was she was so smart and so ambitious and had like — her company idea is a great idea. It’s really fucking good. And I was like yes, this is fantastic. And I do a lot of startup advising. I know what I’m talking about, I’ve run businesses. So I’m like here’s how you do it. I really kind of walked her through, and I gave her a lot of encouragement and she did it and she’s going great now and that’s one of the, I mean if you were to ask her, that’s probably one of the things that was most attractive about me to her. Not to say that I knew all the stuff about start ups. Like that’s cool. But she could’ve read that and learned that. It’s more that I believed in her, and I encouraged her and I helped her. That stuff is really valuable. Guys, think about it from the other side around. Don’t you love it when you have a woman who encourages you and supports you? Isn’t that amazing? It is. My girlfriend does that with me. That’s fucking amazing. That’s one of the things I value the most about her is that she is a soft place in land for me and all that sort of stuff, you don’t get that if the basis for your actions is money. It doesn’t happen.
Geoff:
Yeah. If you are the boyfriend who helped her actually follow and realize her dreams and supports her development and her career, even if you break up after a week, she’s going to remember you with fondness in her heart forever. “Oh Tucker’s the guy who helped me found that company, thank god, that’s awesome” you know, whatever. Some ex-girlfriend of mine’s like “Geoffrey is the boyfriend who helped me quit that job and found my own company”. That is so valuable to women particularly because they don’t have a lot of role models and their family’s probably not very supportive and their ex-boyfriends didn’t get it. If you can be the guy who’s actually supportive of her career and not just a guy who’s like “oh honey come enter my life, I’ll take care of you. You don’t have to work anymore”. That’s just patronizing.
Tucker:
So just to make sure you guys are clear. We are not saying that your goal in life should be a really funny supportive house husband. If you want to do that you can. The best of all worlds is doing both. Having money, having your own success and then also being supportive, you know being encouraging and being able to like deal with, help a woman in sort of what she’s doing. That’s obviously the best of all with roles so I don’t want to make it sound like you know, we should all just look for a smart woman and help her out and be funny and that’s it. No, no, no. Of course not. Like I said, the most important thing is being an attractive guy. Healthy, intelligent, funny, interesting, empathetic. The next best thing is to have all those things plus money. Because think about it. If I’m a girl, and there are two guys in front of me and one is all these attractive traits and one is the same traits but is rich, I’m going to fucking go for the rich guy of course, obviously. So let’s not pretend it’s not. But if you have to pick, pick being attractive over being rich, right? Ideally do both.

Join the Mating Grounds Mailing List

Get the voicemail number to ask us your questions directly:

SHARE THIS ARTICLE