BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT
15th of December 2014

How To Be Attractive To Women, Pt. 11: Showing Interest In Women (Romantic Proof)

Introduction:

To have relationships with women, it’s important to show that you’re interested, and there’s a right way to do this and a wrong way. In this episode, Tucker and Geoff tell you how to display romantic proof to attract women, how to avoid being creepy, and how being honest will help you get laid.

Podcast:


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Key takeaways:

  • Romantic signalling is showing signals of genuine interest and enthusiasm and attraction and eventually commitment to a woman.
  • The simplest form of romantic signalling is focusing your mating effort on one particular woman. This can be as simple as making eye contact with her instead of other women or talking to her instead of just talking generally in a group
  • One big signal of romantic proof is talking to a woman one-on-one. Eye contact is also very important. You want to be focusing on the woman you’re with, and be present. Put effort into the conversation. Pay attention to what she’s saying, respond to her interests and preferences.
  • If a woman you’re talking to starts talking to someone else, don’t get upset. Act like nothing happened, just start a conversation with someone else.
  • Don’t talk negatively about other women.
  • When a woman asks what you’re looking for, don’t lie. Lying makes you less effective with women. Being honest helps you get laid. If you aren’t looking for anything serious, say so. Say that you’re young, you want to have fun, and you want to meet and experience as many people as possible.
  • Women want to have sex just as much as men do, they just have barriers that men don’t get over. Displaying romantic proof appropriately is the best way to get rid of those barriers in the short-term.
  • If you’re interested in a long-term relationship with a woman, introduce her to your friends. Make her feel like part of your social network. Go out in public with her.
  • Another important thing for showing romantic proof is how much mental space is she taking up in your life? How much do you anticipate her needs? Do you remember dates? Do you remember details about her life and her preferences? By being aware of her interests, preferences, and needs, you show that you care and are invested in her.
  • The normal escalation of romantic signalling is first paying attention to the woman, looking at her. Then talk to her. Invest time and attention in the conversation and learning about her, then invest more time in doing fun stuff together. What freaks women out is when you immediately escalate to romantic obsession without going through those stages first. If you want to avoid being creepy, don’t throw out huge romantic signals before they’re appropriate.

Links from this episode

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
Alright, so on this episode of The Mating Grounds Podcast, we are covering romantic signalling. Basically, romance is maybe the primary thing that young guys get wrong with women. Either they don’t do any of it or they do way too much. So, we’re going to talk about what romantic signalling is, why it matters to women, what things work, and what things don’t work. So, Dr. Miller, I want you to explain for a second, what is romantic signalling? People think romance, they think flowers and candles and whatever. Talk more about romance in a scientific sense, so a guy can understand what it actually is.

Geoff:
Yeah. Don’t think Valentine’s Day flowers and candy. This is really just about showing signals of genuine interest and enthusiasm and attraction and eventually commitment to a woman. But initially, for short-term mating, it’s mostly about just instead of sending out mating effort generally, instead of trying to attract women in general, it’s about kind of narrowing, focusing your mating effort on one particular woman. And that can be as simple as just making eye contact with her instead of other women or talking to her instead of just talking generally in a group. So, that’s the simplest form of romantic signalling.

Tucker:
Right. So, in the literature, it’s called showing high relationship-specific investment, which basically means are you paying attention to the girl and are you telling her you like her? I don’t necessarily mean literally saying, “Hey, I like you.” Telling a girl you like her, you’re signalling it. Remember, we’ve done podcasts before about signalling. It means you’re either saying it directly or you’re saying it without directly saying it. Either way, you’re sort of showing what you actually mean. So, let’s talk about what are the reliable, hard to fake signals that you’re interested in a girl? Actually, wait. You mentioned this before. Let me make this clear to guys. Let’s talk about broadcasting. There’s two different types of mating efforts, broadcasting or signalling. There’s one that’s sort of wide, normal broadcasting signalling, and then there’s narrowcasting. So, broadcasting and narrowcasting. Talk about what they are and what the difference is.

Geoff:
So, broadcasting is anything you do as a guy that generally raises your mate value or your attractiveness to women in general. So, if you’re a rockstar, you’re on stage, thousands of women are cheering for you, you’re demonstrating your musical talent and creativity and intelligence and wit, but it’s kind of broadcast to all the women within earshot. That’s broadcasting, and that can be very effective. But it’s not the same as romantic signalling.

Tucker:
So, that’s broadcasting your mate value.

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
Broadcasting mate value by showing girls how hot you are.

Geoff:
Yeah. Your quality, all these traits we’ve talked about, right? Your mental health, intelligence, all that stuff. You can broadcast it. To some degree, we’re kind of broadcasting through the podcast. Not that Tucker and I are looking for mates, but whenever you’re appearing in public, even if you’re just telling jokes kind of loudly in a bar, that’s kind of broadcasting. Narrowcasting is focusing on a particular woman and showing I’m willing to take the time and energy and attention to focus on you. Women find that very, very compelling, because you’re simultaneously saying, “You’re worth it. You’re worth my investment,” and, “I’m not investing in all the other potential women out there.” So, that’s narrowcasting.

Tucker:
So, the way to think of this, guys, to make it as clear and easy as possible, we get a lot of guys asking us, “How do I know if a woman’s into me?” That’s really what we’re talking about, except the other way. How do women know if you’re into them or not? So, just think about it from your perspective. If you kind of like a girl, you’d also like to know if she likes you so that you can know whether to advance your interests, whether to talk to her more, to tell her that you like her, to ask her out, right? Because if you know she likes you, you’re going to ask her out because you’re not worried about rejection, whereas if you don’t know what she thinks you’re worried about rejection, right? Women are the same way. Women want to know what you think about them on a romantic level, because that information is very valuable to them. It’s just as valuable as information for you about what the woman thinks. So, we’re talking mainly this podcast is about how you can show women that you’re romantically interested and the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it so you don’t do it the wrong way. So, generally speaking, there’s two types of relationships – short-term or long-term. Short-term is hooking up, fuck buddies, sleeping with a girl for a week, maybe dating for a month or something. That’s short-term mating. Long-term is either quasi- or fully-committed relationship, we’re boyfriend and girlfriend or married. We’re going to start with short-term and then move to long-term. So, Dr. Miller, here’s the question about short-term mating. No one asks this and we should start with this. We’ve already had the podcast about what women look for in men, how they evaluate you. We’ve talked about a bunch of the important indicators of attraction. So, let’s say a guy has nailed those and he’s at a bar, class, dance class, wherever, and interacting with a girl and she’s into him. In her mind, she’s like, “I want to fuck this guy.” So, we’re talking short-term. So, here’s the question, ‘cause if you’re a guy and you think, “I want to fuck this girl,” then if you know she’s down, you’re fucking her right then. Every gay guy I know says that hooking up is super easy in gay culture because guys want to fuck and they know it, so you meet a guy, you talk for twenty minutes, maybe, and it’s like, “I want to fuck you. You want to fuck?” “Yeah.” And they go in the bathroom and fuck. That’s how guys would have sex if they could, and they can when they’re gay. That’s how it works in gay culture. So, we talked about this in the podcast with Carl White. He talked about this. So, that’s the question, is why doesn’t that work with women? Clearly, we understand why, on an evolutionary level, women aren’t just fucking random guys. There’s a bunch of reasons that’s not in their interest. But what about when she’s talking to a guy, into a guy, knows she wants to fuck him or is pretty inclined to it. Why doesn’t she just pull him into the bathroom and fuck him?

Geoff:
This is absolutely crucial. Why do you have to talk to women so long before they’ll mate with you? And the answer is romantic proof. They want the unfakeable signal that you’re willing to invest the time in them that gives them some assurance that he’s not just using me the way that two gay guys would use each other at a purely physical level.

Tucker:
Right. But they know what they’re doing, so it’s cool with them. It’s very different with male/female.

Geoff:
Yeah. For the gay guys, that’s cool, ‘cause they have the same preferences and neither of them require romantic proof and reassurance. But for women, one of the unfakeable ways to demonstrate interest in a woman is you spend time with her and not with other women.

Tucker:
So, what’s one of the big symbols of romantic proof?

Geoff:
Talking to them. Talking to them one-on-one. And most women out there simply won’t be comfortable having sex with a guy unless they talk to him for at least a few hours first. This will vary—

Tucker:
And this is girls who, going out, say, “I want to hook up tonight.”

Geoff:
Yeah.

Tucker:
We’re not talking about – guys, as a short aside, you’re basically never going to convince women to have sex. What you’re going to do is convince women to have sex with you. For the most part, a woman has already decided. We’re talking about going out, looking for short-term mating opportunities, which, in America, generally involves bars and clubs, which is not a great way for most guys to meet women, but is still what most guys do. And it’s fine. We talk about that a lot. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just hard. But even in those situations, 90+ percent of the girls who go out have already decided if they’re hooking up that night or not, or if they’re in play. If they are in play, the decision is, “Who am I fucking?” Not, “Do I fuck?” So, the question is not, “Hey, you’re really cute. I want to have sex with you. I’m going to try and convince you to have sex.” That’s ridiculous. You’re never going to do that, and it’s also a little creepy. What you’re going to do is show a girl why she wants to have sex with you. After she’s attracted to you, one of the main ways she’s going to decide if she wants to have sex with you is by displaying romantic proof. So, let’s talk about conversation. This is obviously after the conversation has been initiated. We’re going to have this whole, separate podcast about how to initiate conversation with girls in various ways and how to have conversation, because initiating is not the same thing as romantic signalling. They’re different things. So, let’s talk about romantic proof in the context of conversation. If I’m a guy and I’m talking to a girl, what should I do to display romantic proof in a conversation?

Geoff:
Well, the number one thing is eye contact. Eye gaze is absolutely important for social primates for fifty million years, and it’s such a powerful signal because if your eyes are pointed at her eyes, they’re not scanning the room for other possible mates. That’s a proof to her that, “Oh, he’s interested in me because he’s literally looking at me and he’s not looking around for other opportunities.” If you’re that guy who’s kind of talking to a girl and, out of the corner of your eye, you’re constantly getting distracted by that butt and that cleavage over there and that pretty face off to the side, she will sense that immediately. And that means, to her, “I’m going to shut my body down. This guy is not into me. He’s just wasting time.” So, eye contact.

Tucker:
Or, “Even if he is into me, he’s looking to trade up or he’s not that into me or whatever.” Think about it from your perspective. Have you ever been talking to someone and they’re looking around the room and not paying attention? How does that fucking make you feel? It makes the woman feel the same way.

Geoff:
Disposable.

Tucker:
Worse. Especially if she’s thinking about sleeping with you, that’s, like, the worst thing you can do, I think, is be scanning over her shoulder looking for a hotter girl. Listen. Let’s be realistic. I’ve done this plenty of times, okay? Even if you are looking for a hotter girl, don’t fucking make it obvious. Not only is that rude, but what it’s going to do is ensure that you don’t sleep with that girl you’re talking to.

Geoff:
Yeah. So, if you’re with a woman, be with that woman. Be present. So, apart from eye gaze, second thing is just effort, mental effort in the conversation. Remember her name. Pay attention to what she’s saying. Active listening. Respond to her interests and preferences. This requires effort, but it’s cognitive effort. It’s keeping your mind sharp in the conversation, and staying with the woman, not just in terms of where your eyes are pointed, but where your attention is focused. So, you’re not thinking about what I want to drink next or that conversation you had with some other hot woman yesterday. You’re focused on her. You’re in the present. You’re mindful of it. Your whole being is with her. That is very compelling. It doesn’t matter that much what you talk about, but just – women call this having a connection. That sounds really vague and weird – intimacy, connection, what is that? It just means you’re fully present with that woman in the conversation.

Tucker:
Yes. So, I think we talked about this on the podcast in the interview with Robert Greene. Your charisma model should be, probably, Bill Clinton. There’s no American politician – you’d be hard-pressed to find an American man who’s more effectively charismatic than Bill Clinton. What you’re talking about right there is charisma. Charisma is two things. It is projecting effectiveness and power combined with warmth. So, what that means in real life, like Bill Clinton, when he talks to you, every single person – man and woman – I’ve ever met who’s spent any time with Bill Clinton, and I’m talking everyone from Drew Curtis to John Calipari to girls I know who have slept with Bill Clinton and everyone in between. I’ve never met Clinton, but I know a lot of people who have. They all say the same thing. When you are with him, when you are talking to him, you feel like nothing in the world exists except the two of you. That is an intoxicating feeling. That is an incredibly intoxicating feeling, and even dudes I know, guys say this. They don’t talk about him sexually, but they’re like, “Man, you feel like nothing else exists. You have his total focus. His total concentration. For that five, ten, fifteen seconds, two minutes, twenty minutes, you are his entire world.” There is almost nothing you can do more attractive – for men and women, that’s why it’s called charisma and not sexual attraction because it applies to both sexes – there’s almost nothing you can do that’s better, more attractive than paying attention to who the fuck you are talking to. Super important.

Geoff:
And women are starved for this. Women don’t get enough of this. Most guys are terrible –

Tucker:
Most people, but especially women, at least in the context of this conversation.

Geoff:
Women crave it at a really visceral, primal level, and this is what they brag about to their girlfriends. “We had such a connection. He is so into me. The whole world dropped away.” So, that’s another form of romantic proof. The other thing about conversation is just literally the number of minutes you spend with a woman is proof that you’re interested in her, ‘cause those are minutes you’re not spending with other women. You’re not just saying, “Oh, I prioritize you over others.” You’re demonstrating it in an unfakeable way.

Tucker:
A lot of this will apply to long-term mating, as well, but this is short-term mating. This is even with hook-ups. I want to bring up a very important point, because I know a lot of young guys are going to listen to this and at this point, they’re going to think, “I should go out and just fucking stare at women when I talk to them and cling to them and let them know that they are everything in my life.” That’s how they’re going to interpret it. That’s wrong. If you go too far on the path that we’re talking about, paying attention and looking her in the eye when you speak, listening to what she says, engaging what she says – if you go too far, it becomes desperation, and desperation is super unattractive. Not only is it not attractive. It’s unattractive. It’s a repellent. So, going back to Clinton, no one’s ever going to describe Clinton as desperate, ever. Something else gets his attention, someone says, “Hey, Mr. Clinton, I need you to come over here,” you don’t stare into someone’s eyes your whole life. He moves on and then he’s never desperate. Of course, he’s Bill Clinton. He doesn’t need to be desperate. Here’s why desperation is unattractive. It sends a signal to the woman that you are beneath her. Whether you are or aren’t doesn’t matter. It just sends this signal that you’re beneath her, so you never want to send that signal. Whether it’s true or not, it really doesn’t matter. There have been so many times in my life, long before I was famous, long before anyone knew who I was – and I’m talking about when I’m 26 and I can’t pay my bills and I have to date fat girls to eat because they bring food over or something or girls that I wouldn’t otherwise date, but they were super into me and they bring food over to my place. That’s how I ate. When I was at that stage in my life, I was still fucking hot girls. Most of them weren’t bringing me food, but the reason I was is because not only was I charismatic, but I had no desperation. Even if, by all rights, I should have been desperate in a lot of ways, I was never desperate with women, and so they read my behaviour as an honest signal of what I was like. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’ve been desperate with women before at times in my life. Almost every guy has. It fucking happens. There’s no shame if that’s happened. But desperation is essentially giving a girl – how would you define desperation?

Geoff:
It’s almost like the malignant, cancerous form of romantic proof, right? So, on the one hand, genuine interest, romantic proof as genuine interest in a woman as a person is super attractive. On the other hand, particularly young guys can do this kind of misshapen form of romantic proof that shades over into creepiness and stalking and desperation and low mate value, and that’s not only counterproductive. It actually shades over into illegal. So, you have to be really careful about calibrating when and how and where you show this kind of romantic proof. The fundamental thing you’ve got to do is show signs of high mate value, all the fitness indicators we’ve talked about. Once you show those and you combine them with genuine interest in that woman, one-on-one, as a person, that’s compelling.

Tucker:
Let’s talk specifically about that. So, how does someone combine the other lessons with this one in a real interaction? Here’s a great way. So, let’s say I meet a girl at the bar and she’s hot and I’m into her. I start talking to her. We initiate conversation, and when I’m talking to her, I’m looking at her, I’m listening to what she says, I’m responding to what she says. I’m not just waiting for my turn to speak. I say a couple funny things, whatever. How do I not show desperation? There’s many different ways. One is, let’s say someone comes up and talks to her. Okay. You act like nothing happened, as if it didn’t even impact you. So, she turns her attention away. The worst thing you can do is sit there, upset, staring at her like a dog that had its bone taken. If that’s how you’re acting, you’re wrong. In fact, if that happens, initiate a different conversation with a different person and talk to them, totally focused and engaged with them. You’re not dissing her. You’re not pissed at her. It doesn’t occur to you that you should have any emotional reaction to her talking to someone else or you talking to someone else. Now, that’s not desperation. What that shows is social proof. It shows social skill ‘cause you’re talking to other people, it shows social proof ‘cause other people want to talk to you. Without getting too creepy, it shows that you don’t need her, which is actually very attractive. The opposite of desperation is not needy. It doesn’t mean you don’t want. The best balance is wanting but not needing. I want to talk to you. I want to engage with you. But I don’t need to.

Geoff:
Yeah. It’s the difference between, “I’m an interesting and confident guy who chooses you. I choose to talk to you in this conversation,” rather than, “You’re the only woman I can get to talk to me.”

Tucker:
Right. Or, “You’re my sun and stars,” or something.

Geoff:
Or, “For no good reason, I’m romantically fixated on you even though I don’t even know you, and you’re the only woman who exists for me not because I’ve even talked to you or know you but because you remind me of…” a movie star or my mother or some freaky psychoanalytic thing like that. That’s super counterproductive. So, you have to give off the vibe that I’m confident. I don’t need you. I want you. I choose you. I want to be with you. I’m enjoying this conversation. But if it’s withdrawn, like the dog losing its bone, I’m not going to freak out. There are other people, other women, other men, I can talk to.

Tucker:
Guys, I cannot tell you how many times in my life I’ve been talking to a girl and we’ve been having a great conversation and I’ll think, “This girl definitely wants to fuck me.” By the way, women will use this to test you. Very unconsciously. There’s some manipulative women, but most of this is unconscious. Getting back to my story, how many times in my life I’ve been kind of into a girl, like, “Man, I really like this girl. She wants to fuck me. We’ve been talking and having a great conversation,” so it’s enrapturing for both of us, and she’ll break it off or she’ll let it be broken off. I don’t go chase her or whatever. I just pick up the next conversation. Because, tying this back into what we’ve told you guys over and over, your goal going out should be to meet people and have fun, not have sex. This is a perfect example of how, if your goal is to have sex, you will fuck this up. Because if your goal is to have sex, what you’ll do is chase that girl around the room because you’ll think, true or not, this is my sex. So, you’ll chase and you’ll go from attractive to unattractive. So, what I do in those situations is I talk to other girls and think, “Alright. I like her. If she comes back, I’ll talk to her. Maybe I’ll engage with her at a different time.” I go and talk to other girls, because until you have committed to one, even just for sex that night, you are still a free agent. Go talk to other girls. By the way, if you want to increase your mate value in her eyes, let her see you talking to other girls and having the same conversation with other girls.

Geoff:
Especially if other girls are actually responding and laughing.

Tucker:
Yes. Exactly. Especially in this situation. If you’re dating a girl and you do that, it may be a different thing. It’s a little weird. This is just normal, social interactions. It is always attractive for you to be talking to women and having a good time for other women. Always. So, by the way, I would say 90% of the time that happens, the girl comes back later. There are some dudes who teach “oh you should break it off.” Whatever, man. I guess you can play that game, if you intentionally break off a conversation. That goes both ways, though. I’ve been in a lot of situations where I’m having a great conversation with a girl and if you break it off, you kind of lose that magic and you don’t keep going. You kind of have to judge that yourself. If it’s a really good conversation that’s doing really well and that you really feel is going somewhere, I’ve done that a lot, where the first girl I’ll meet, if I just have a total connection with and she’ll have a connection with me and we’ll talk for three hours or five hours and then we’re fucking in the car or we’re going home or whatever. And I literally don’t have to talk to another girl the whole night. No problem. That’s great. I would default towards making as many friends and having as much fun as possible, but understand that a bird in the hand – not to make this sound creepy, but — not a bird in the hand, a great conversation is a really hard thing to start back up and to replicate, so once you have that, don’t let it go unless you feel it going. Then, you can cut it off and say, “Alright. Listen, I’ve got to go talk to my friend. I’ll be back in an hour. Let me catch up with you later.” Then, that’s fine.

Geoff:
Yeah. It just has to be authentic. Women have really good radar for when you’re running game on them and being inauthentic and being manipulative vs. there’s a lull in the conversation and you do want to get back to your friends. If it closed naturally and there’s an interruption, that’s fine, but if you’re doing it like, “Oh, I’ve talked to her seventeen minutes. It’s time to disengage and create artificial scarcity,” she’ll pick up on that and think it’s creepy and it will make her shrivel up inside.

Tucker:
Right. Exactly.

Geoff:
Another important point here, I think, is that this is where some of the seduction tactics that kind of encourage guys to have a misogynist mindset, like an anti-woman mindset, really handicaps them, ‘cause if you go in with a view that, “I’m better than women. I’m going to seduce and manipulate them,” it’s almost impossible to give genuinely attractive signs of romantic proof. It’s really hard to fully engage in the conversation. It’s hard to show genuine connection, interest with them. If you go in with that mindset, you’ll think, “Oh, that’ll increase my mate value.” Maybe, but it won’t increase your romantic signalling value. It’ll actually undermine that completely.

Tucker:
It’ll definitely undermine it in all contexts that are not loud, obnoxious clubs. If you’re trying to do that at an improv class or in school or at CrossFit, you’re going to look like a fucking idiot. It doesn’t work at all with real people in real social situations. We’ve said this before and we’re going to say it again. Bars and clubs are hard for a lot of guys because they’re very artificial environments, and there are rules you can learn, there are things you can learn that can help you in those situations. The problem is, a lot of those things don’t work anywhere else. It’s a very weird place. Let’s talk about some more short-term signals of romantic proof. I think how you talk about other women is a big one. If a girl’s interested in you, a lot of times, she’ll be like, “Oh, what was your ex-girlfriend like?” that comes up. If you’re like, “Oh, that fucking cunt. I hate her. I’m going to stab her next time I see her,” probably not going to work well. How you talk about other women, women will essentially immediately – your ex-girlfriend might be an awful person. We’ve all had bad exes. A woman will automatically assume how you talk about your ex is how you’re going to talk about her the vast majority of the time, unless she knows your ex. Be very careful about that.

Geoff:
Yeah. What she’s looking for there is signs that you have the kind of personality that’s capable of emotionally engaging with a woman and respecting her and connecting with her. And this doesn’t just apply to how you talk about your ex-girlfriend. It can also apply to how you talk about her sister or your female co-workers or any other woman in your life. The way that you think about them and have an emotional relationship to them, the woman figures that’s this guy’s personality. That’s how he views women in general. If you go around dissing all women other than her, part of her might think “he thinks I’m kind of special”, but a big part of her will think he’s a creepy monster.

Tucker:
And that’s what he’s going to say about me later.

Geoff:
He’ll say that stuff about me in a week or even tomorrow morning.

Tucker:
Yup. So, let’s talk specifically about – look, some of us have bad moms, awful sisters, bad exes. What do we say? How do you frame that? Let me go through how I do it and then let’s talk about how you do it. Let’s take the hardest example. If you have a bad relationship with your mom, a lot of women will take that as a really bad sign. I don’t have a good relationship with my mom because my mom has a lot of problems, emotional or otherwise, and whatever. Women ask about my mom, right? I’m not going to lie. I’m not going to be a fucking liar and say, “Yeah, she’s great. Everything’s fantastic.” That’s a fucking lie. If you want to lie, I guess you can lie. I don’t like lying. It doesn’t work well and it makes me feel shitty. So, I say something like, “Well, my mom and I don’t talk as much as I’d like,” and then she asks more. “Why? What happened?” “Well, you know, my mom’s a good person. She does try. I know in her heart, she really tries, but she has a lot of problems and they’re very hard to address and things are difficult for her.” You see what I did there? My mom’s a fucking crazy person, but the way I framed everything is in the most positive possible light. I framed her intentions as good – which, I think they might be. Being crazy doesn’t mean you’re evil. I don’t think my mom’s evil. So, I make sure and point that out. I make sure and point out that she tries. I say, “We don’t talk as much as we’d like,” which is true. I’d love it if I had a normal mom. That’d be fantastic. These are all truths, and I point these out instead of highlighting the negative things. Most women, at that point, will stop because they’ve already read between the lines and they get it, and if they have a shitty mom, they’ll start that conversation. That’s common ground you can commiserate on, because that’s one of those things in our society a lot of people don’t talk about or even admit to, and if you’re willing to admit it even a little bit, it makes you look courageous, makes you look honest, makes you look authentic. All very attractive. But it also makes you look very socially intelligent and very socially conscious. I didn’t say anything in that terminology that made my mom sound bad. All the bad things were subtext, and a woman immediately is thinking, “Wow. He’s trying hard. He isn’t trashing his mom. He doesn’t trash women.” You’ve been married and had a divorce. How do you talk about that? If I’m a woman and I’m like, “Oh, what was your ex-wife like?” or “Why did you get divorced?”, what do you say?

Geoff:
The key thing when you talk about your mom is no bitterness, no misogyny. You’re demonstrating, “I care. I wish I had a good relationship.” That’s important. Women want to be with a guy who at least wants a good relationship with women. The guy who says, “I’m completely estranged from my mom and my three sisters and I don’t give a shit. That’s fine with me,” big turn-off.

Tucker:
Even if you’re right. Even if they’re terrible people, it’s just the way you’re phrasing.

Geoff:
Yeah. You have to have a yearning to have some connection with women. The way that I end up talking about my ex-wife with women is always very respectful. I emphasize I want to have a good relationship, I worked hard to maintain a good relationship, I still care about her, I want her to do well. I list her good qualities and there are many great qualities. I don’t blame her for the end of the relationship. I take responsibility to the extent that it’s appropriate, which is a lot in this case, and it’s basically just you still treat your ex as a person rather than just an object of your own neurosis or some—

Tucker:
Or a boogeyman for all your anger and pain.

Geoff:
Yeah. Some abstract monster of the divine feminine that you have psychoanalytic issues with, whatever. You treat them as a person and you value the things that are positive about them as a person, and you show I yearn for that connection, whatever the appropriate connection is. Also, crucial, I’m willing to work for it. I’m willing invest in it and I’m willing to overcome difficulties and resolve arguments. Here’s another thing. If you talk about your exes in a way that’s, like, “Oh, it was all going really well and then we had this big argument and I was like, ‘fuck it, I’m done,’”—

Tucker:
“And she’s a crazy person so I’m out.”

Geoff:
Yeah. Okay, how much capacity for mature commitment does that show?

Tucker:
So, that’s more if you’re on a date date. So, if you’re meeting a girl and want to hook up, probably not that important, what you just said, but on a date, super important. A date is essentially you’re trying out for a relationship. Very important. Nonetheless, the easiest thing to do, even if you’re just going out to get laid, the easiest thing to do is to always speak honestly but respectfully and appropriately about even negative women in your life. Listen, I’ve had girls pressing about my mom and I’ll tell the truth. After three or four questions, she really wants to know, I’ll kind of lay out the situations. “Here’s what I think and here’s whatever and here’s how this broke down.” Generally speaking, it’s weird, that actually makes me – it’s not weird; once you understand women it makes total sense – but that actually makes me way more attractive to women. Women really like that simply because I’m emotionally intelligent enough to have an idea of what’s going on and I’m psychologically experienced enough to be able to speak about it in a way that’s intelligent and cogent. Fuck, I might be wrong. There’s always a chance that my interpretation of that relationship is just wrong. Fine. But the fact that I’ve thought about it, that I’m appropriate and intelligent about it is super attractive. It’s also helpful for me as a human. Let’s not forget about that. The fact that I’m not an angry, bitter dude helps a lot with women. That’s an underlying thing, but the way I’ll talk about it also helps.

Geoff:
And showing some discretion, some gentlemanly discretion, like not oversharing sexual details. If a woman casually asks, “What was your last girlfriend like?” and you immediately go into—

Tucker:
She loved it in the butt!

Geoff:
Yeah. She was kinky this way and…the woman will be hearing that and going, “Oh, great, so everything I ever do with you, you’re going to share on about in this way with all of your male friends and all your future girlfriends? No thank you.” Because, remember, women are very, very concerned about their sexual reputations and you have to be the guy who’s discreet and respectful and keep her privacy and respect her dignity, and that means sexual discretion.

Tucker:
Yes. So, that’s covering how you talk about other women. We’re still basically short-term mating conversations, and a lot of this can definitely apply to long-term as well. But we’re still on short-term. How you talk about what you are looking for in a woman and in a relationship. Women, even short-term, will ask you this. I know a lot of girls who are looking to fuck and that’s it. One-night stand, maybe a week, that’s it. They still ask about this! It’s still an issue that comes up. How you answer is a huge factor about whether or not she decides to go home with you or not, especially at this point in the conversation. So, generally speaking, when a woman asks you what you’re looking for, I can’t emphasize this enough and we’re going to talk about this a lot more in a few minutes when we get into long-term, but don’t fucking lie. Lying to get laid doesn’t make you a player. It just makes you a liar. Moralizing lessons aside, it makes you less effective with women, it makes you less attractive to women, it makes you less likely to get laid – short- or long-term. There’s essentially no upside. In fact, being honest helps you get laid. Let me explain how. Most women assume that guys are lying when they’re talking about relationship stuff, at least, and usually talking about their “oh, yeah, I drive a Ferrari” or “I’m worth a million dollars,” whatever. But almost always, the assumption with women is guys are lying about their relationship desires. Because what happens? Most guys, when they go out and meet girls, they think they have to convince women they want to be in a relationship to sleep with them because a lot of women want to only have sex in a relationship, which is fine. So, that’s their default. “Oh, yeah, I want a girlfriend and I want a wife and I’m looking to meet the one,” even if it’s not that extreme. “I’m looking for a relationship.” If you are in that space, great, say it and own it. If you’re not, take the opposite tact. Go the opposite way. In fact, go extremely the opposite way. Be like, “Look, I really do want a girlfriend and a wife and kids at some point in my life, but that’s five years away or ten years away. Right now, I’m just young. I want to have fun. I want to meet and experience as many people as possible.” What you’ve done there is you’ve done the opposite of most guys. You’ve told the fucking truth, and then what happens is that girl is immediately relieved because it either means she knows she’s not going to sleep with you because she’s looking for a boyfriend or she’s like, “Wow, this guy’s honest. I want to fuck too, but I only want to fuck honest guys and this guy told me the truth and that’s so sexy.” Right?

Geoff:
Yeah. It’s almost shocking. Guys are so rarely honest that if you are honest about that, it almost hits the emotional reset button in a woman’s mind and changes the whole dynamic. And women are very skeptical about men’s commitment signals and romantic proof signals. So, my collaborator, Martie Haselton at UCLA, she’s done a lot of research on what she calls commitment skepticism, which is the way that women hear signals of romantic proof as a guy will say “I love you” and women will go, “Really?” They’re skeptical about that signal of commitment. So, it doesn’t really help that much to start bombarding a woman with a bunch of declarations of love and interest because a woman has a filter that goes, “Maybe. Maybe not. This is cheap talk. Prove it. Prove it by talking to me, investing in me, making eye contact.”

Tucker:
That’s long-term. So, let me ask, because I know in my experience, anecdotally, that’s one of the things I’m famous for, is being brutally, ridiculously honest. It has paid off so much. However you want to talk about it, but if we’re talking about just this podcast about women and sex and the specific conversation of short-term mating, I don’t know if I’ve done anything in my life that’s helped me get laid more than being honest with women. I really don’t know that anything’s been more important.

Geoff:
Well, it also shows a lot of confidence and maturity and experience to be able and willing to say that and to trust that maybe some women will slap you and some will just throw a drink in your face and walk away.

Tucker:
Let’s talk about that for a second. Never been slapped. Once or twice, I’ve had drinks thrown in my face and it was after I became famous and it was women who were like, “I hate you so I’m going to throw it.” Those are women that have their own emotional problems. Never once have I ever had anything like that happen.

Geoff:
And guys, that’s crucial, ‘cause a lot of teenage guys think, “If I leak any cues that I just want some short-term sex, that will be so deeply offensive to women that they will start beating me to death or god knows what will happen.”

Tucker:
That’s wrong. First off, let’s talk about that. Why do guys get slapped or drinks thrown in their face? Because it does happen. Why does that happen? Did you hear what I said? I said, “I’m not looking for a long-term relationship. I’m just kind of looking to have fun, to meet new people, experience new people.” What did I not say?

Geoff:
You did not say, “Oh, hey, I know I just met you but I really want to go down on you right now.”

Tucker:
Right. “Hey, bitch, you want to fuck?”

Geoff:
Yeah. Saying, “I want to have fun and meet new people,” is code for, “I want to have a lot of sex with a lot of people,” but it’s not saying…it’s socially intelligent.

Tucker:
It’s sending a signal of social intelligence and not crude crassness, which is like…look, I’m crude and crass, but not in that way! In other ways. So, for instance, I do this with Veronica all the time. We’ll be going out and someone will say something about sex or babies or whatever at dinner, and I’ll be like, “Oh, yeah, I shot a load in her before we even came out,” or something and everyone laughs because it’s Tucker. Even she laughs. She thinks it’s funny because we already know each other and I’m dating her and in that context, that crude and crassness is so honest that it’s funny. But if I just met a girl, I’m not going to be like, “Yo, I want to shoot a load in you. You down?” I should say, there are definitely weird, extreme outlier situations where saying certain direct things can absolutely work. We’re going to talk about that when we do the podcast on talking to women and approaching women in those situations, because they’re very unusual and they’re very different. Get your fundamentals first before you know how to do that. That’s advanced shit. That’s like Tomahawk slamming in a game. You better be able to touch the rim first. We’re talking about touching the rim now. So, any sort of thing where you are aggressively or blatantly asking for sex in a way that is unexpected or unwanted, that’s when you get slapped or drinks thrown on you.

Geoff:
It’s threatening. It’s sexually threatening.

Tucker:
It’s insulting, actually, is what it is. Think about if a gay dude came up to you and was like, “Hey, man, let me suck your dick. No one will know.” Wouldn’t you be kind of…even if you don’t have any issues with gay people, you’re a little bit insulted. Like, why would you think I’m going to let you suck my dick? What’s wrong with you?

Geoff:
Give me at least ten minutes of conversation first! Show me some romantic proof. I want to be a special snowflake. Value me.

Tucker:
Exactly. Again, guys, how you say shit is so important. I cannot say that enough. Or you go the opposite way. So, you’re talking to a girl and she’s like, “So, what are you looking for?” and you go to her and be like, “Well, I’m at dollar beer night at this college bar, so clearly what I’m looking for is the love of my life. Do you want to get married at least by this week? Because if you don’t, I don’t want to talk to you anymore.” That’s funny, that’s so ridiculous and she’s going to laugh or whatever. Do that if you’re good at humour. If you’re not, then learn how to be good at humour. Either one of those are fine. You can go one way or the other. You can be funny and make a joke of it or – notice how what I said is not some formal British gentleman bullshit. It’s honest. Look, I want a relationship at some point, definitely, but definitely not now. I’m absolutely not looking for a relationship. I just kind of want to meet new girls and new people and experience new things and have fun. You can say it like that or you can even be a little more aggressive about it. You can say things like, “Hold on, you’re awesome. I really like you. You’re pretty. You’re a great girl. I can see why guys want to date you. I’m not looking for a girlfriend, so if that’s what you’re looking for, maybe you don’t want to spend any more time talking to me.” I would only do that with girls who are into you. Don’t go up to a random girl and say that ‘cause she’s going to be like, “What the fuck are you talking about? That’s weird.” That’s a little more aggressive way to do it. It works with certain girls, but women who are interested in you will always ask that question or will always look for a signal of that. So, give the appropriate signal. Here’s the thing, too, being honest, I promise you, you will be talking to girls and they will ask you the question and if you just want to hook up, you’ll indicate it and say it the right way. “Right now, I’m just looking to have fun, to date people, nothing serious yet.” Say it really well, there will be girls who will say, “I’m not looking for that. I want a boyfriend. I’m out of here.” That’s okay, ‘cause what you just did is save yourself hours and hours or days of time and money and investment in a girl who’s not looking for the same thing you are. That’s a good thing. Sorting yourself according to your goals should be one of your primary things, and figuring out, offering romantic proof of whatever your intentions are is one of the best ways to sort women according to goals.

Geoff:
Yeah. You just saved yourself a month of frustration and guilt and shame.

Tucker:
A month? What are you doing?

Geoff:
Well, however long you would’ve been chasing her and trying to sort of pretend to be her boyfriend even though you know you’re not going to be, you saved yourself all of that. That also saves your own sexual self-respect and your sense of integrity. And a crucial thing about the way Tucker is saying, “I’m looking for fun and meeting new people,” is there’s no shame or guilt. It resets the moral framework for the interaction that it’s okay, that you don’t have to pretend that you prefer a boyfriend in order to have sex. A lot of young women don’t know what the sexual rules are. They don’t know what the moral framework is.

Tucker:
More importantly, they don’t know what yours are.

Geoff:
Yeah. And different guys have different moral frameworks. If she meets some Mormon dude in Utah and he’s like, “I know I should want a wife, but I have these urges,” then she’s going to be like, “I could have weird, kinky, guilty, shameful sex and feel bad about myself after this,” and for some women, that will work.

Tucker:
Yes. There are very few, that that will work a lot for, and those women usually have a lot of problem. The women going in search of Mormon men to soil…that’s a whole separate sub-category. It’s dysfunctional. That’s our dysfunctional psychology podcast. To sum up, romantic proof strategies for short-term mating are very simple. Pay attention, signal interest, signal that you’re into her, don’t be desperate, don’t be clingy, don’t scan the room. How you talk about other women and how you talk about what you’re looking for are also super important.

Geoff:
There’s one more thing I might add, which is women kind of know what their overall mate value is, like how attractive they are to most men, but what’s especially attractive is if they meet a guy who strongly values things that make them extra attractive.

Tucker:
Things that are unique about them.

Geoff:
That are unique about them that you notice and that you express. So, I meet a lot of highly intelligent women who have PhDs and stuff, and I love intelligent women, and one of the first things I always say is I express appreciation about their intelligence and their education and that’s awesome and you went to a great place.

Tucker:
Look at you, education signalling. Credential signalling. We already talked about this!

Geoff:
And that’s super attractive, because if they went and got a PhD, they’re proud of it. They invested years in that, and a lot of guys they meet are intimidated or turned off, and if I’m the guy who’s like, “That’s awesome. I value that. That makes you more attractive to me,” then they feel like, “He values me more than more other guys would, and that means whatever happens, whether we have one night in bed or he becomes a boyfriend or husband, he’s going to value me more than other guys would.” That gives them status and bargaining power and self-esteem and it makes them feel great and women love that. So, whatever the trade is.

Tucker:
Tall women, great example. If you’re into tall women…listen, guys. I know there’s a big thing, some guys are embarrassed about being into heavy women. If you’re into heavy women, just fucking own it. It’s no problem. If I’m your friend, I might tease you about it. Who cares what I think? You’re not fucking me. You’re fucking her. If you’re into that, I wouldn’t necessarily go up to girls and go, “Hey, I like fat girls and you’re really fat.” That’s not the way to phrase it. But whatever the girl is, if she’s really into CrossFit, “I love how fit you are.” Don’t say, “I like that you’re really strong!” No. Say, “It’s so cool that you take care of yourself and you’re into these things. I’m into them or I want to be into them,” or whatever. Here’s what you guys need to understand. Any outlier trait for a woman, she has been teased and mocked about it in her past, even if it’s attractive to you. So, whether skinny, fat, tall, short, smart, various ethnicities or skin colours…I don’t know if I’d be like, “Oh, I really like Asians.” Then, a lot of girls are going to think you’re fetishizing them, which is not attractive to a lot of girls. But maybe if you express an appreciation for Asian culture, if she’s actually off-the-boat Korean or something. If she’s just an American girl who doesn’t know anything about Korea, that’s weird. Adjust it to what it is you’re into. If she’s big into manga comics or Comic-Con and you are, too, right, she’s been made fun of for that. A lot. The fact that not only are you not making fun of her for it, but you actually like it about her is something that she is going to really appreciate and take as a big signal of romantic proof. Just like you like it when girls tell you that they’re into you, this is a big way you can signal to her that you’re into her and she’s going to like that.

Geoff:
And it doesn’t have to be a sexual trait. This is a mistake a lot of guys think, is, “I have to value her unique form of physical beauty.” Don’t restrict it to that. It can be her career. It can be her leisure interests. It can be where she’s from. Anything. In fact, the less sexual, at least initially, the better.

Tucker:
Yes. Definitely better. If she’s got big tits, every fucking guy her whole life has stared at her tits and told her she has big tits. Congratulations. You’re the one millionth guy who’s seen her fucking tits. Tell her that later when you’re in bed with her how much you like her tits. Then, she’ll like it. But if she’s also tall, she’s been made fun of for being tall and felt self-conscious about it her whole life. Most of the super hot girls that I’ve slept with in my life have been tall because tall girls are the easiest girls to get in a lot of ways because…I actually like tall girls. I’m tall. So, if you’re short, I don’t know. If you have everything else in line, being short and going after a tall girl might work, but it’s really tough. I’m tall enough – I’m 6’ tall and there are very few girls over 6’ tall, and usually tall girls want a guy taller, but if I’m their height…Veronica’s my height. 5’10”, 5’11, 6’ tall. Those girls have problems meeting guys because any guy their height or shorter is, for the most part, going to be intimidated and the fact that I’m not intimidated by it and I actually like it? Women love that. It’s like a big, big thing. Most of the super hot tall girls I’ve met haven’t been approached much in their life. A girl who’s 5’6” and hot gets hit on incessantly. A girl who’s 6’ and hot gets hit on about 90% less than that girl who’s 5’6”. It’s nuts, but it’s true. I didn’t realize this for years. When I actually went through and looked at the really, truly 10+ hot girls that I had been with, almost all of them were 5’10” and above. There were almost none that – because the ones that are 5’6” are a fucking pain in the ass to deal with! Every guy is hitting on them! It’s like, I don’t want to put in that effort. I’ll go talk to the tall girl who’s got no one talking to her. I’m going to take the easiest path. Why would I talk to the girl that’s got eight guys around her? What a waste of time. Especially short-term, if that’s your goal. By the way, I want to point this out to guys. We keep coming back to this. All of these signals for short-term mating, all of these things that you’re doing, these pieces of romantic proof. They help alleviate the three barriers that women have to sex, especially short-term sex. Physical safety, emotional safety, and social safety. All the things we talk about are signalling that you are safe in those three areas. You’re not a threat to her physically. You’re not an emotional threat; you’re not going to use her or lie to her. And you’re not going to talk about her or diss her; that’s a social threat. All of these things tie directly into that. Guys, women are just as sexual as men. You saw the study that just came out. There’s been a bunch of these. Women want to have sex as much as men do. Women just have barriers that men don’t get over. Displaying romantic proof appropriately is the best way to get rid of those barriers in the short-term. Let’s talk about long-term now. We’ve kind of talked about commitment skepticism. Let’s talk about it in the context of longer-term relationships. So, let’s say I’m dating a girl a little bit and I want her to be my girlfriend. What are the things she’s thinking, commitment-wise? Why do women extend out commitment phases sometimes? Cheap talk, those sorts of things.

Geoff:
Well, the key thing is what can you demonstrate to her in terms of your romantic attachment, interest, commitment that’s a hard to fake signal, that actually would cost you something if you weren’t being genuine? The kinds of things that tend to be hard to fake are typically public commitments. What that means is if you actually…taking her out in public is intrinsically romantic because simply being seen together in public, for social species like ours, means other people can see that you’re a couple.

Tucker:
Yeah. And you’re putting your reputation on the line….

Geoff:
You’re accountable. Meeting your friends, meeting your co-workers, meeting your family. The more she feels like part of your social network, the more morally accountable to that network you are for how you treat them, right? If she meets your sister and then you treat your girlfriend like shit, your sister’s going to ask about it—

Tucker:
And give you shit. “Why were you mean to that girl?”

Geoff:
What happened? Yeah. So, integrating her into your social network, public declarations of romantic attraction.

Tucker:
That sounds goofy, but if you’re dating on Facebook.

Geoff:
Yeah. Relationship status.

Tucker:
There’s a reason there’s all kinds of drama over that on Facebook. It’s not because Facebook matters. It’s because that’s a very public way to display a romantic signal.

Geoff:
Yeah. Giving gifts. We’ll probably have a whole podcast about selecting, giving gifts, how to do that, but a key thing there is—

Tucker:
Inconvenient vs. costly, stuff like that.

Geoff:
Right. A big thing is sort of how much mental space is she taking up in your life? How much do you anticipate her needs? Do you remember dates? Do you remember her birthday or anniversary or Valentine’s Day? The things that matter to her. Do you remember details about her life and her preferences? You’re taking her out. She mentioned she’s allergic to shellfish a month ago. You remember that, you go, “Oh yeah, you’re allergic to shellfish.” Even something simple like that is romantic proof, because if a guy didn’t care about her, he wouldn’t bother to remember that.

Tucker:
It’s an honest signal that you’re allocating important resources to her. I can give a million stories just from me and Veronica. I think I told the one about how she loved the scent that they used of the aftershave at the barber I went to and I bought that and she was blown away. She’s a CrossFit competitor. I didn’t think she had the right protein that she drank after a workout, so I went and got her better post-workout stuff, and she was super…buying whey protein for a girl sounds like that’s the stupidest thing ever. What girl thinks that’s sexy, right? It made total sense in this case because that’s something that she cares about and it matters to her and it’s important to her. So, that was way better in this context than buying her roses, right? Another good example…I don’t even remember when she said it. At some point, we were walking through somewhere, Whole Foods, and they had peonies, which are a type of flower. She’s like, “Oh, those are my favourite flowers.” It wasn’t like when girls are like, “That’s my favourite flower. Hint, hint, asshole.” It was just more like, “I love those. They’re so cool. My dad used to grow them,” or whatever. I just kind of filed that away. I didn’t do anything. A month or two months later, there was a reason I wanted to get her flowers. It wasn’t just because. That’s fucking lame. It was more like…there was a reason, and I honestly can’t remember, but it was enough of a reason. So, I didn’t just get her flowers. I got her peonies. I called around to two flower shops, I found the best peonies in Austin and bought her a bunch – which, by the way, they’re fucking expensive. What the fuck? Those flowers are, like, $7 a piece. Not for a bunch of them. For, like, one of those motherfuckers.

Geoff:
Whole Foods, dude.

Tucker:
Yeah. No wonder it’s her favourite fucking flower. What the hell? No, I didn’t get them from Whole Foods, dude. I got them from an actual flower shop. Whole Foods has pretty shitty flowers. Whatever. The point is, it’s not just getting a gift. It’s that it took time and thought. That gift meant something to her. That’s an honest, difficult-to-fake, romantic signal of the fact that she both takes time and space in my life and matters enough to me that I would commit those resources.

Geoff:
In fact, the more the gift is tailored to her specific preferences and it’s not something that you would buy for yourself and it’s not something that other women would want. That’s actually why the whey protein is super cool, because Veronica wanted it and most women would consider it deeply unromantic and might appear offensive. But for her, that’s what makes it especially hard to fake and valuable and emotionally awesome as a gift. I used to suck at gift-giving, where I would either buy women stuff that I kind of wanted to have around and play with or that I thought women in general kind of would like or whatever. Gradually, I started to realize it’s when you demonstrate that I understand your specific preferences and I’m going to act on those, even though no romantic comedy has ever featured these as a romantic gift. For you, I know it’ll work.

Tucker:
I started laughing because…so, this is not a good example of romantic commitment, but I do this all the time and it makes me laugh so much. So, almost every girl I’ve ever met loves surprises, right? So, I used to do this to girls all the time. I haven’t done it with Veronica yet. Don’t tell her about this ‘cause I’m going to do it at some point. What I used to do all the time with girls, I’ll take something around my house, just a random fucking thing, and wrap it up and give it to her and she’ll be like, “What the fuck is this?” So, I’ll take a half-eaten bag of raisins and wrap it up, like, “I got you this. This is very special.” And she’ll open it and she’s just like, “What?” She’ll try and act like, “Oh, I’m so excited about raisins.” She kind of tries to act like she doesn’t want to hurt my feelings ‘cause she thinks it’s a real gift at first, and then she sees it’s open. She’s like, “Why is this open?” I was like, “Well, I got hungry. I couldn’t stop.” And then they’ll look at me like…and then, of course, at that point, I break down laughing and they get all upset. Not real upset. It’s more like funny upset. Like, this is so ridiculous that it’s funny. Or I’ll wrap up two unmatched pairs of socks. Just nonsense. Around the house, total nonsense. If you do it too much, they get angry, but if you do it once every six months, then it’s really fucking funny to watch their reaction. That should be in the humour podcast. Probably not in the romantic signals podcast.

Geoff:
That’s almost romantic counter-signalling.

Tucker:
Actually, yeah. It very much is, except it’s funny. I don’t give it to her in front of her family. That would be insulting. It’s just more like, “Oh, it’s a surprise! I’m so excited!” And then she’s like, “Why did you wrap up the dog bowl? What the hell is this?” God, that’s so funny. So, let’s talk about some other credible, honest signal that women prefer long-term. So, we’ve got any sort of exclusive stuff, even if you’re not formally dating, if you…I was going to say give her a key to your apartment. Probably don’t do that. It depends on the girl. Anything that’s irrevocable, hard to…okay. Planning a picnic, like a hike and a picnic takes a lot of time, huge pain in the ass. A lot of women will like that more than spending $500 on a dinner. It depends on who you are. If you make a lot of money and you live in New York, then the time at the picnic’s going to be way bigger because who cares? He has $500 dinners every night. It doesn’t mean anything. A lot of guys get pissed about that because, “I just spend $500 on this dinner! What the fuck?” They don’t understand that the woman cares about things that are costly to you, not things that are expensive.

Geoff:
And often time is a bigger cost to money. If you’re a busy, active guy, which we’ve given you lots of reasons to become that busy, active guy in terms of being attractive, then any gift that you make is hugely more valuable than anything you buy, if it’s reasonably well-made and somewhat useful and beautiful and whatever. It doesn’t need to be that awesome. I’ve made furniture for women. I’ve written poems. Anything that takes time—

Tucker:
Do you have any of those poems because I would read those on the podcast and laugh and laugh and laugh.

Geoff:
I’ll show you the high school literary magazine that I edited that included several anonymized—

Tucker:
Maybe you shouldn’t.

Geoff:
I shouldn’t. You’ll be like, “I’m co-authoring a book on mating with this guy? Oh, my god.” But the time cost is the point. That’s what actually makes it romantic and unfakeable.

Tucker:
Let’s talk about the highest level of romantic signalling in a committed type situation is the commitment signals that have deep emotional roots. Infatuation, deep love, emotional attachment, vulnerability, things like that. I don’t want to spend too much time on this podcast because it is its own subject, but if you are in a romantic, committed relationship, being vulnerable and a little bit infatuated – not much, a little bit, so it’s not infatuated, just highly interested in your girlfriend and emotionally open and exposed. Those sorts of things, very good. First off, they make a healthy relationship, but also really signal – that’s a very honest, very difficult signal. It’s very hard for most guys to be emotionally vulnerable. It’s hard for me. It’s hard for anyone. So, those things are really good ways. That’s more if we go on to talk about relationships, that’s what you do in a relationship. But I wanted to bring that up because it’s a perfect segue to what you should not be doing in terms of romantic signalling. This is what most young guys do, is they get infatuated or obsessed or stalkery or they mistake lust for this deep love and then they go off the fucking deep end. That’s not only super unattractive, it’s very unhealthy for you. So, let’s talk about young guys overcommitting to deep, romantic signals and how that goes wrong, ‘cause that’s super important, I think.

Geoff:
Yeah. It’s a disaster. It’s a major cue that you’re just not a mature guy yet, ‘cause you don’t calibrate your romantic proof and your emotional responses appropriately, given how well you know a woman. So, no woman – even an 8th grade girl – is comfortable with a guy being obsessively in love with her when he hasn’t even talked to her yet.

Tucker:
Well, of course not. Let’s talk about escalating the signalling in the right order. So, this is a good place to talk about this. Generally speaking, how does romantic signalling escalate? Just in the broadest sense. And if you’re 28, you get this. If you’re 18, you might not. If you’re 14, you probably don’t at all, so let’s talk about romantic signalling escalation.

Geoff:
Well, first you pay attention to the woman. You look at her. You don’t stare like a predator, but you look at her. And then you talk to her. You converse. You invest time and attention in the conversation and learning about her and remembering stuff about her, and then you invest more time in doing fun stuff together, stuff that’s fun for her and not just you. It goes on from there, but what freaks women out is when you immediately escalate to colossal romantic obsession without going through those stages first, because she knows you have no information about her. She’s just a symbol to you.

Tucker:
Even though she doesn’t know it consciously, she feels that. Why is this guy writing me eight-page poem or he’s never talked to me or barely talked to me or I hardly know him? We’ve never kissed or whatever.

Geoff:
Yeah. And as you’ve said about, well, that’s sexually threatening, emotionally threatening, socially threatening. You might be some loose cannon that goes on a shooting spree or ruins her reputation or god knows what.

Tucker:
Or you’re just a fucking weirdo! That’s what weirdoes do. Writing huge, romantic commitments or signal thats come at inappropriate times are the number one way girls think you’re creepy. If you want to avoid being creepy, don’t throw huge romantic signals out before they’re appropriate. That means don’t tell girls you love them unless you do. Don’t do these big, broad gestures – if you’re a 16-year-old guy, the worst way to learn about romance is romantic comedies, because you’ll think you need to take a boom box outside a girl’s window and play music and tell her you love her. That’s a good way to get the cops called, and you should be ostracized and shunned because that’s fucking weird. That shit doesn’t work. It works it that’s your girlfriend and you’ve been dating for two years and you want to do some goofy, romantic gesture. Totally fine. Escalate romantic signals at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way. So, let’s just be real clear, young guys: notice, talk, connect in some way that’s appropriate whether that’s being friends, hanging out, whatever, physical contact, kissing, holding hands, etc. Then, large gestures. In between those, you’ll get some other gestures. So, all the short- and medium-term or long-term things we’ve talked about, like paying attention to a girl, telling her you like her or being interested, listening to what she has to say, spending time on the phone with her, those sorts of things are normal. But being like, “I love you, I love you, I love you. I’m obsessed with you. I can’t live without you. You mean everything to me. Here’s my 25-page poem about our life together. Here’s my epic novel about what our house will look like,” you’re a fucking creeper. That’s not okay.

Geoff:
That’s not just about escalating your romantic signals individually. It’s also pay attention to is she escalating her signals back to you? Don’t get more than one or two steps ahead of her. So, if you’re already at the conversing with her stage and she’s barely making eye contact with you, that’s a signal to back off. If she’s willing to talk to you and flirt and laugh and then you think, “Oh, she’s really into me. Now, I’m going to write my epic romantic poem.” No. You’re eight steps ahead of where she is. It’s the human courtship ethogram. It’s the normal sequence of mating that humans do. And you’ll learn this, but the faster you learn it and the better roadmap for it you have, the better it’ll work.

Tucker:
We’re going to have specific podcasts where we talk about conversation: starting it, escalating it. We’re going to have specific podcasts about picking up girls in bars, specific situations for that. Specific situations and social groups, how to deal with those. But I want to be very clear about this because those might be weeks or months away. Guys, if you don’t pay attention to the signals women send you, then you are creepy. I hope I don’t have to tell you when women say no, back off, but…if a woman has to verbally say no, it usually means you’ve missed about six signals before that, okay? So, if you’re talking to a girl and she’s like, “Look, man, you’re really creepy. You need to leave,” you probably missed the fact that she turned away from you three times and you had to readjust the seat. You probably missed the fact that she’s rolling her eyes at you. You probably missed the fact that she’s giving you fake smiles and looking away. You missed the fact that she’s scanning the room, looking for other people to talk to. You missed a huge number of signals. These are not subtle. Very rarely will a woman, out of nowhere, say something that totally shocks you and you’re like, “I don’t know where this came from.” Dr. Miller, you wouldn’t believe how many emails we get. Guys are like, “I don’t understand. I thought this girl was really into me and then she got angry one day and I don’t know why, and then I tried to get us back together even though we weren’t dating and now she’s blocked me on social media. What do I do? How do I get her back?” and I’m like, “You don’t get her back! Leave her alone, you fucking weirdo!” If someone’s blocked you on Facebook, I don’t know of another signal other than cops showing up with a restraining order.

Geoff:
She’s terrified of you.

Tucker:
Yes, because you’re fucking weird. Back that up. We actually got an email like that. Taking that out, she’s blocked me on social media, “How do I convince her that I’m not weird?” You’ve already lost. The way you don’t lose is you read her signals early and you understand, “Okay, she doesn’t want to talk to me. No big deal. I’m going to go find girls who do.” This ties in with the very first thing we told you. If you want girls to want to sleep with you, you have to pay attention to them. Well, one of the ways you’re going to know if they don’t want to sleep with you is by paying attention. They will send you signals. Interpret them and act on them.

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