23rd of March 2015

Helping Joe, Episode 7


From the feedback you all have sent us, this episode is one of the best we’ve ever done. If you have similar problems to Joe’s, you are going to get a ton out of this podcast.

In week 7 of Helping Joe, Charlie and Tucker dig into Joe’s mess of emotional issues after he has a great date, but ruins it by blowing off the girl he liked. What starts off as a small celebration with good tactical advice gets heated (Tucker get’s angry) after they learn what Joe texted her after. They explain how his fears are crippling his mating opportunities and why “Joe is a wantrepreneur with women.” This is the most open and honest episode so far. They gave Joe some harsh feedback that he and many other guys out there needed to hear.


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Joe’s Thoughts and Takeaways From This Episode:

Hey this is a running commentary of random thoughts, notes, and takeaways I had during or after this episode. – Joe


  • How to reframe fears by measuring the potential upside against the downside risk
  • What to look for when choosing your go-to first dates
  • How your fear of looking foolish is crippling your mating opportunities
  • The difference between connecting and just doing a checklist of actions
  • Why you have to experience more failures in order to get to success
  • Why you have put up with uncomfortable activities to be around good people and build great social groups.
  • Emotionally connecting with a woman is the only thing that matters in a relationship

@2:00 – Deeper insecurity about girls who like me

“Because a girl expressed interest in you, you actually thought less of the girl… You have serious issues with self-esteem.” – Tucker

I think Tucker jumped the gun here. I don’t think this is true.

At first I just thought it was odd or she’s weird but cool, she messaged me a goofy pickup line and texted the night before we went out, “I’m am so looking forward to tomorrow” which was nice but strange because that’s never happened to me through a Tinder match.

Then as time (hours) went by it morphed in my head into this idea that “oh this chick might be crazy and this date is going to suck.” I also had a bad day, thought about canceling, but didn’t

@3:30 – “The great was date.”

I was nervous here, my words slip, and Charlie thankfully caught it and had fun with it. The date was great. She was a ton of fun. Best date I’ve been on in Austin so far.

“She’s probably looking for a guy who’s goofy in a good way… and got excited to meet him.” – Tucker

@6:00 – Thinking this is unusual is fine, but wrapping all these insecurities and crazy thoughts around it is not.

@7:30 – I had a lot of trouble answering his questions here.

I don’t know why I felt this way or what was going through my head. It was just a reaction. Just didn’t think about it. This is probably why I need to meditate so I can slow down and think about my thoughts and replace them with better ones.

@8:30 – Looking at upside potential VS downside risk

I don’t think about things this way, looking at potential upsides VS potential downsides. I don’t think about the downside risk and how it’s very minimal. Maybe that’s why I get anxious for no good reason because exactly 0 times have dates gone horribly bad. The worst that usually happens is they don’t show up or there’s no chemistry and we go our separate ways. Tucker also threw too many numbers at me here and I got confused here. I’m retarded sometimes.

But his point was and it’s a great one: “If the downside is so small and the upside is potentially big and the normal case is pleasant, why are you anxious?” – Tucker

I’m anxious about 1) how I will perform and 2) how she will judge me.

@12:00 – 1st step is to recognize this anxiety for what it is. 2nd step is to readjust / reframe it:
In my case, find out what is interesting about her and… have fun.

“It’s telling that he can’t remember to have fun.” – Tucker
I don’t know why I couldn’t remember this. I knew this but I just forgot it.

This is something we talked about in Episode 5 and will continue to talk about because it’s something I just don’t do well or it’s a problem for me.

@13:00 – Celebrate things that go well!

“We have other dates to talk about but let’s talk about this one… one of the important things here is to celebrate your victories. Let’s talk about it and recognize it.” – Tucker

Oh how short-lived this celebration was … lasted about 15 minutes before the yelling started… god damn it.

@14:00 – Swearing under my breath during dates

This is funny, Tucker and Charlie make great jokes about me swearing under my breath and not trusting her tricks + running out of the restaurant.

I don’t think I really do this on dates but it might come out in other weird unconscious ways like a long pause or an odd facial expression or a semi-depressed sigh.

@15:30 – Tucker gives a good tip (“Call me and I’ll tell you what wine to get and why.”)

Charlie challenges this because he thought it was a little deceptive. I don’t see much wrong with this but maybe it can be a little deceptive. I don’t think so, I’m trying + learning new things.

And I’m actually starting to like wine because I don’t like beer that much. I usually drink amaretto or vodka, but chicks like wine so that seems like a smart thing for me to learn about right now.

Vino Vino is a really cool bar (one of best in country) and has great food. It’s also a really comfortable atmosphere. It’s impossible to sit outside so there’s no chance of me sitting out in the cold with a chick who thinks I’m crazy. So there’s that too.

@18:00 – I can’t remember what we talked about on the date

On the one hand it’s a bad sign that I can’t remember the conversations I have on date. But on the other hand, this date was last week and I can’t remember every damn thing about every date I go on and recite it back to them live on the spot on a podcast. Fuck.

@19:30 – Great sign when a woman goes out of her way to touch you.

Funny flexing trick that Tucker uses. He probably has a million of these where a chick does something and his funny response is right there automatically. I’m not there yet. I don’t really think about these things even though they are great opportunities to flirt and have fun.

@22:00 – I keep characterizing dates, which is worthless, instead of going into the details.

Tucker is right here, characterizations, “It was great.” don’t help anybody and are boring. I have to figure out how to remember or communicate details to them on the podcast. Not sure why I can’t do this. This is why it’s a lot better when I record dates.

“We need details so that we can 1) mock you and have a good laugh and 2) help you get better.”

Tucker nonchalantly says this, but these ~20 words are the essence Helping Joe and why this is a good series to do on the podcast. He should also add 3) helping other guys listening who have similar problems.

@23:30 – “Can I see your texts?”

It was a good thing Charlie said this or the podcast would have been much different.

@24:30 – Tucker’s mentality when he picks his go-to date places

Tucker’s go-to dates are places or things to do where he shines and can show off what he is good at or what he knows and is fun.

Think about date ideas in 3 ways: 1) fun 2) what you know 3) where you can shine.

He goes to fancy restaurants and wine or cheese tastings. In 10 years I might be into that stuff, but right now I could give a shit. I’m learning wine and cheese, but still clueless. Antonelli’s cheese shop which he mentions here is actually right by my house so I might try that out. I like cheese but don’t know anything about it.

@25:30 – “Stop deleting your texts!”

I wasn’t deleting the texts here. I had no reason to because up until this point I thought I was doing OK. Wrong.

They talk about drunken history here which sounds awesome! I’m going to find this out. Reminder: talk to Charlie about this later. Google it and find out more about this!

@26:30 – Charlie has fun reading these texts.

It was funny and I’m glad at least he had fun with it.

@27:00 – I am not a good communicator. Tucker gets angry.

“Wait, you wrote back ‘meh’!” – Tucker

“Joe, you jackass!” – Charlie

I don’t know why I laughed here. Probably because I thought Tucker was over-reacting or being dramatic and it was funny + Charlie reading the texts was funny + I was uncomfortable and thought laughing would be a release. Wrong.

Tucker: “What is wrong with you?!”

I scramble to begin defending and get shut down “SHUT UP!” This sucked.

@28:00 – “Why did you respond so late? Why did you wait 2 days?”

I don’t have any good answers to their questions.

“This is a fucking joke.” – Tucker … That stung. The way he said it sounded to me like I was a joke, Helping Joe was a joke, doing this podcast was a joke. This sucked.

“If you like somebody and you put them on hold for 2 days, it’s weird and rude.” Charlie is right. Maybe I don’t really like her that much or I’m just a rude asshole. Charlie’s point was that it looks like you are playing games.

@30:30 – Charlie’s voice message via text trick. Works on iPhone.

This is smart and cool. I might use this later.

@31:00 – “What if she said she wanted to play in a pile of pig shit. Who cares?”

Tucker’s right here. Who cares what you go do. You’re with a chick you like, who cares what you’re doing.

But to be honest, I think going to the movies in the first few dates is a bad idea because it’s someone you don’t really know that well, and you’re sitting next them not talking, it’s just weird. I would rather be talking or doing something engaging (I think the Drafthouse is like this though, so this excuse doesn’t work here), not just sitting in silence watching something.

The worst 1st date I ever had was when I was 19 and I asked this chick to go to the movies because I thought that was a normal date. Well, it was a normal date, but an awful 1st date. It was awkward and date went downhill from there.

@34:00 – Tucker flips out. You can tell he’s exasperated / mad.

This sucked but the questions he was asking here were valid. I had no good answer.

“The only reason any one procrastinates is because they are afraid of what they are going to do because it will cause some sort of pain.” – Tucker

Yea I don’t understand this because there have been plenty of times I have procrastinated on things but I had no fear of doing them. I just knew it was work and put it off, usually because I didn’t break it up into smaller doable pieces.

“That is not the action of someone who is actively engaged in this… I’m not going to be involved in this. We won’t do it. We’ll find somebody else.” – Tucker

Twice he said something about wasting his time and he wasn’t going to do this. I think that’s one reason why he got so angry.

Nobody has ever talked to me like this in a way where they are cutting through bullshit, painfully honest, and getting to the point of “hey you can’t fucking do this and I’m not going to put up with it.” This talk was necessary. Nobody has ever been painfully honest like this. As much as I hate to say it, I probably needed this.

@36:15 – “This isn’t about me.. nothing to do with me or Charlie.”

I think it is a little about him or his time possibly being wasted here and that’s why he got mad. Why else would he get so pissed? Notice, Charlie didn’t get mad.

@37:00 – I finally get into the real reason why I did this… it took 15-20 minutes of Tucker angrily prying it out.

I didn’t want to appear too desperate or too into her.

I have this thing in my head that you shouldn’t plan dates on the weekend unless you’re getting serious with the woman (4+ dates in or whatever) or else you look too into her, too desperate.

It’s ridiculous writing this but I don’t think much about it. It’s just a pattern of not setting up dates on the weekends or not responding on the weekends because if you’re a cool guy who has shit going on in your life, your weekends are busy, and you will get back to her on Sunday or Monday. Even writing it like this I feel like a douche but that’s how I was thinking when interacting with this girl and others.

@38:00 – Charlie hits nail on head, great fucking advice…

“Both sides don’t want to appear desperate, but earnestness and sincerity is an endearing trait and if you genuinely want to be with this person. Own it! Do it!”

Men who you don’t want to look foolish are crippling their mating opportunities. They are afraid.

@39:00 – Emotions VS Checklist of Actions … connecting with deeper problem VS staying on the surface

I was pretty confused here. I haven’t been to therapy since I was in high school (my mom’s a therapist and suggested I go).

But I do understand how checklists and pickup systems don’t work with real human relationships, emotions, and connecting with someone.

Tucker kind of lays into me here. And I really don’t know what he’s talking about. This sucks.

41:00 – Tucker talks about change and the emotional stuff we went through

“Everyone wants change, but very few people want to put in the work necessary to change because it’s hard and painful.”

“When people say ‘I want to change,’ what they really mean is ‘I want change to happen to my life.’ They don’t want to actually do it.”

What the fuck is emotional work? What does that mean!

“You are afraid of everything… you are totally fearful of connecting with anyone.” – Tucker

This doesn’t make any sense. I think he’s being over-dramatic to make a point. It just makes me want to argue with him. How can I be afraid of everything? What are you talking about? If I was afraid of everything there’s so much shit I wouldn’t have done.

@43:00 – Tucker sees the problems I have and knows the path I have to walk. I am clueless

Tucker: “I know exactly what you have to do. I know the path in front of you because I’ve walked it.”

What the fuck is it?! I should have just asked him but didn’t.

“I can’t come back here every week and listen to you find new ways to avoid connecting with people.” – Tucker

I get nervous here because that basically means if I don’t start connecting or being emotional (which I guess I don’t know how to do at all) the podcast is over and we’re done here.

He says it’s been a pattern in the podcast, but I just don’t know. I don’t see it or maybe I’m blind to it because I’ve been doing this so long it’s just a part of who I am and my habits. I don’t know.

@44:30 – What the pickup artists miss

“The problem with you is not informational, it’s emotional… we can walk you through bit by bit but you have to fucking do it.” I don’t know how to do this!

He’s right though. That’s something I’ve learned but haven’t internalized that well. I’m attractive and I can get girls or whatever. I’ve been on 1-2 dates a week with different chicks that are cute. That’s not bad. The problem isn’t informational or technique, it’s emotional, like not seeing that Latin girl is fucking freezing outside and that maybe we should like go inside now.

Life is more than checklists. You can’t be a robot about relationships.

@46:00 – I felt bad here because I didn’t realize how bad of a blowoff this was and that she was probably hurt by it.

@47:00 – Two possible emotional problems they think are going on:

1) I’m petrified of meeting a girl that I like
2) Afraid of looking like a fool

I think it’s the 2nd here to be honest. I’m afraid of looking like a fool.

This comes out as fear of:
Looking desperate
Looking stupid in front of others
Making mistakes & failing

@48:30 – We get into my past a little bit here.

I rushed these stories and was vague here because this was uncomfortable. I should have been more specific with details and emotions. These stories suck.

@50:00 – Charlie talks about failure here.

“The number of failures you’ve had is not enough.” – Charlie

I think he’s right. I haven’t had enough failure. I haven’t put myself out there enough to fail and to learn from those failures and getter. I probably haven’t done this because failure sucks and the failures I had sucked even though nothing bad happened, I just looked like an idiot and I don’t like that feeling. In this case, yes I am afraid, maybe petrified, of failing and looking foolish especially in big social situations like at bars or in groups of people.

@52:00 – “You don’t do anything. Why are you doing this?”

Tucker gets angry again here. Again, I have trouble understanding what is he talking about or where he is going. I think he’s exaggerating or being over-dramatic I’m doing this because I suck with girls and I want to get better and have more women in my life. Although I see his point that some of my actions are sabotaging that.

@54:30 – Great metaphor but this sucked:

“I can’t carry you up this hill.” – Tucker
“I’m not asking you to.” – Me
“Yea, you’re not, instead you’re just sitting at the bottom of the hill.” – Tucker

56:00 – “There is a major internal barrier/obstacle and you have to recognize it.”

Again I think Tucker is out of patience here because he doesn’t know what the fuck is wrong with me, what my issues are, or why I am doing or not doing the things that I do.

What he’s talking about here… I think he’s right. I obviously have a few weird emotional issues probably around fear, being vulnerable, being found out (imposter syndrome), but I don’t know exactly what they are or how they play out. And he doesn’t know what those are so he just got angry. I don’t know what the real issue is. I don’t know where to start.

@57:00 “Your actions unequivocally say that you do not want women in your life.”

I don’t know what he’s talking about. How do all my actions say that? I wouldn’t fucking be here, I would’ve already walked out by now if that was true.

And Charlie as well doesn’t know for sure what he’s talking about.

Tucker then talks about me turning down or avoiding opportunities to meet with or be around women.

I really don’t know what he’s talking about. Maybe he’s talking about how I don’t go out to bars that much or how I didn’t sign up for 1-2 groups or how I didn’t hookup with this 1 chick we were hanging out with (She was into me, I didn’t know her that well, can’t even remember her name now. I just wanted to go home and sleep.). I don’t know.

He talks about this again @ 1:01:00 (a few minutes later) and gets angry because I’m clueless and don’t know which specific story or instance he is talking about.

@59:30 – Charlie makes a really good point here about putting up with activities you don’t like to be around good people who you do like.

This is a deep point and a good one.

I think that’s one of my problems. I don’t want to put with uncomfortable situations or places I don’t like (loud bars and clubs) to hang out with and be around people that I do like (people I’ve met in Austin). I can’t put up with the discomfort enough to build a good social group. I hate bars and I can’t put up with the discomfort of that to hang out with other people. I probably do have an inability to be socially comfortable for long periods of time.

There’s been situations where we pre-game or are at a house just bullshitting, less than 10 people, before we go out to bars and that is so much fun. But then we go out to bars and I don’t have fun anymore because I get nervous and there’s all these people around who I don’t know that are just getting drunk too. I can’t talk to anybody because the fucking shitty music is too loud. It’s not fun for me like it is for most people.

@1:03:30 – Business analogy … “Joe is a wantrepreneur with women”

Tucker talks about how in business, wantrepreneurs are afraid to do all the stuff that you can fail at.

“You’re failing at business cards.” This was funny.

@1:07:00 – I talk about failures VS mistakes. Tucker and Charlie sigh and have a few insights.

“I think you have a very strong stigma against failure.” – Charlie

“I’ll tell you, Joe, you are testing me… if I can help you, I can help anybody.” – Tucker

This was funny, but I don’t know what he’s talking about! Why does this make me so hopeless?

@1:08:00 – Charlie makes a great fucking point here and identifies what I think might be one big problem I have:

“The checklist problems (‘Is my dick the right size?’) is fine for you, but it’s the emotional stuff that you have a problem with… deep-seated fear of failure or making a mistake. Until that stigma is pulled off, you won’t be able to go into interactions without tip-toeing socially.”

Ahh, tip-toeing socially, yep. Charlie hit the nail on the head. So many times I do this, probably unconsciously, where I am self-editing and tip-toeing around people so that I don’t say something stupid and look dumb. Usually when I meet new people or am in a group of people that I don’t know that well. Even though they don’t even matter. That’s the worst thing. I do this most often around people I don’t even know. I mean, I shouldn’t give 2 fucks about what they think because they don’t matter in my life at all. I don’t know them! But I tip-toe around what I say and I’m not myself. Maybe I have an inferiority complex or some shit like that.

@1:10:00 – Emotionally connecting with a woman is the only thing that matters in a relationship

Tucker says some aspect of connecting with a woman petrifies me but I don’t know how. How is this scary? I’ve never been petrified (nervous yes) of fucking girls and dating and being around girls I like. What the hell does this mean?

@1:12:00 – Tucker talks about his past emotional problems and difference between he and I.

He had to go to therapy / psychoanalysis every week for 4 years before he was ready to have a legit relationship and get married.

“I really noticed a deep change. You are behaving different, your energy is different, you were caring about people.” – Charlie, talking about Tucker

Castle, keep, and walls metaphor:

Tucker says that for me, the wall is miles away from the keep. I don’t let people in at all. He might be right here. I don’t know.

@1:15:00 – Relationships, childhood, and early experiences shape you how interact with the world.

And you can still have traumatic experiences without severe physical things (rape, beatings, etc.) happening to you.

@1:16:00 – Charlie talks about kids who drop dead from being bullied. Tucker laughs.

This is funny, not the kids dying, but Tucker laughing after Charlie told him about this.

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