In the second week of Helping Joe, Tucker and Charlie talk about Joe’s Tinder profile (what he did right and wrong), his first Tinder date, why small talk is so important and how it’s easy to do, why making a woman feel comfortable on the first date is critical to it going well (Joe fails at this in later episodes), and how to message or followup with a woman who “goes dark.” Also, Tucker and Charlie make fun of Joe and the odd things he says.
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Joe’s Thoughts and Takeaways From This Episode:
Hey this is a running commentary of random thoughts, notes, and takeaways I had during or after this episode. – Joe
- Swiping Right for every single match on Tinder doesn’t work.
- If you’re tall, lead with height. If you are under 5’10’’ lead with something else or make a joke about it in your profile.
- Your first goal of the first date is to make her feel comfortable and to show her you're not crazy (why small talk is critical)
- Why you shouldn't talk about Tinder on the Tinder date.
- How to message and followup with a girl who "goes dark" or doesn't respond.
- Testosterone problems (just go get a fucking $37-$50 blood test)
@0:00 – My Tinder Profile
We jumped right into it talking about what’s on my Tinder profile. I was awkward and took a few minutes to get comfortable and just talk without sounding like a weirdo. Anyways… profile was great except for one photo that I shouldn’t have added. It was a pic with 2 girls that I thought was fun but according to Tucker and Charlie just looked weird. Another reason why it’s great to have someone else giving you honest feedback. I can figure these things out quickly and fix them.
“The reality of the picture is irrelevant. All that matters is how the pic looks and what it signals.”
I had less than 20 matches in 1 week. I don’t know what I was expecting on Tinder, but I thought it would be more matches or better chicks. Not sure why I had this expectation. I was still able to set up dates.
@7:00 – Swiping Right for every single match on Tinder doesn’t work.
@10:30 – The bio doesn’t matter that much on Tinder. It’s just the first picture and height.
Tucker gets upset here that I didn’t make the changes to bio that Charlie told me to make. It’s kind of funny because he gets annoyed or angry quickly. I wanted to try it out my way after we talked about it on Episode 1, then make changes they told me to make this upcoming week, so I could see if there were any changes in how many matches I got.
@11:15 – I was nervous reading the bio out loud. Hope this make sense. Listening to it, it’s kind of funny.
If you’re tall, lead with height. Don’t try too hard. If you are under 5’10’’ lead with something else or make a joke about it in your profile.
With apps or online, people will sort by some standard (age, height, looks, whatever) that they wouldn’t sort by or care about in-person.
Own it and make a joke about it. Here’s a great example of this in my opinion.
Re: Being funny on Tinder and online dating … I don’t know about this.
I think being too funny might not work because you’re more of clown, trying too hard, looks like you’re here for jokes instead of to meet and date someone. I want to connect with a chick in real life, not just have them laugh at my profile, I’m not on Tinder to just make jokes. I think having too many funny things in profile signals wrong thing (just another dickhead on Tinder). That’s why I had first pic with Tucker’s dog.
Also when I see a girl who just has a bunch of goofy or funny photos, I usually get annoyed. Maybe it’s because she’s trying too hard or the photos are goofy not funny. I’ve seen some funny bios, not so many funny photos. Also, this last bit is probably irrelevant because men are not as attracted to women who are funny as they are to us if we are funny. Very few guys have “good sense of humor” or “she has to be funny” in their top 5 things they want in a woman. Dr. Miller knows a lot more about this than I do (or anybody does). I’m just bullshitting here. Also to me if a woman has a good sense of humor, it’s usually just her laughing at my jokes or whatever in the conversation. To be honest that is way more attractive (her laughing and responding to my humor) than her just being funny and goofy on her own. Very rarely have I met a woman who I was not attracted, then go to know her, she was hilarious, and then I was attracted to her.
@15:30 – Online dating works for those people who have good resume attributes. “Tinder is made for good looking people and people who are funny in pictures.”
I have doubts about the 2nd part of this. I think Tinder is great for good looking guys (like top 10% of people), but not a good market for someone like me who is not as good looking. I’m thinking tinder in austin is not the right mating market for a ginger, even with a few funny photos.
@16:30 – What’s great about Tinder and online dating is that when you meet in person, you already know that she’s attracted to you.
She liked what she saw and made the decision to meet you and see where it goes. When you meet random women at a bar or wherever, you just hope and pray she thinks you’re attractive and sometimes you’re done before you even talk to her.
Although, it also works the other way around where if a woman doesn’t find you physically attractive (she would swipe left or not respond to you online), she could meet you in person randomly not through the app and if you have all these other great traits (funny, warm, smart, whatever) and can show those traits off in a simple conversation, you can probably win over a girl who at first wasn’t into you.
So I don’t know. Online / Tinder is still probably easier.
@17:00 – Tinder date #1
Charlie’s advice from episode 1 was great. It was super easy to set this up.
The date was cool. We had a good conversation, I think. But I wasn’t attracted to her and didn’t want to go out again. I just texted her later, “Hey you’re great, fun to talk with, but I want to be straightforward. wasn’t feeling the chemistry there.” I probably didn’t need to text her but whatever.
@20:00 – Charlie breaking down the date
This is why I’m glad Charlie’s here. These are great questions, he was very specific, and gave some great advice (just chill and talk for 5 minutes before you order) when meeting someone new.
I’m probably not going to buy a bottle of water. That seems like too much. Who does that?
And if I had like a cup of water waiting there for her, it’s kind of creepy. She doesn’t know me, we met on Tinder, she probably would think I’m trying to drug her or some weird shit like that.
@23:00 – Set a relaxed comfortable tone for the first date
This was great advice from Charlie and is something I never thought about. Even though it’s obvious advice “Make a girl comfortable when she first meets you on a date” it’s just something I never thought about to be honest. I was always more worried about what the fuck am I going to talk about with this cute girl I don’t even know.
Even after hearing this advice, I didn’t listen to it, just wait until Episode Three next week where I talk about (and they laugh at) a bad date that was mostly my fault.
@24:00 – More great advice: Don’t talk about Tinder until the very end of the date, unless she brings it up
This was something that went over my head, just did wrong. Don’t start the date by talking about Tinder. You’re not new to Tinder unless you’re a weirdo. Don’t bring it up.
I made her feel weird but didn’t mean to. I didn’t think Tinder would be a shameful thing for a girl, but it is because it has this stigma, kind of like online dating first did in the 90s and early 2000s if anyone remembers that. It also has a stereotype of short-term superficial mating which hurts a woman’s reputation if she’s into that.
How to wrap up the conversation: “I’m just curious, have you had any crazy or really bad experience with a guy on Tinder?” Girls love to tell stories like this.
@27:00 – the Local Attraction (mocking horrible Tinder dates) series that Charlie talks about, very funny
@28:25 – … I’ll finish.
@29:00 to 37:00 – Small Talk
Just start with how your day is going, what’s going, how was your weekend, where you from, where do you work, etc.
This is great advice from Tucker on why small talk is critical for a bunch of different reasons that I never really thought of. I always thought small talk was boring:
“Conversation about the weather is the last refuge of the unimaginative.” – Oscar Wilde … this is kind of how I felt at times. I hate talking about the weather especially with people I already know, like my parents, they always talk about the goddamn weather.
“Small talk is the salad before the steak.” – Tucker
Just 5 minutes is great.
I failed with small talk on this date by starting with Tinder. BUT “This is a good thing that you did this because you can learn from this failure because you have nowhere to go but up.” – Charlie
Start with small talk, especially on blind dates, and then move on to interesting stuff. It displays all these great traits.
@32:00 – Tucker called the shit ‘poop’
@32:30 – Charlie recommends a good book It’s Not All About Me
Tucker says that no I need to read other books first. Fuckin great…
Sidenote: We will come back to this book in later episodes because I suck and do need to read it.
@37:15 – When a girl “goes dark” …
I said something stupid and tried to recover from it, did not work. I had a different question, was changing the topic here, but the way I asked this question, I didn’t let them know that and it just sounded hilarious. This was awkward for me, funny for them. I just had to sit there and take it.
I didn’t start really laughing until the 4th joke or so where Tucker talks about her flipping the table and stabbing dogs when she “goes dark.”
@39:45 – I’m not good at male bonding and shitting on each other as a way to connect, especially with new guys in my social circle. I can do this with guys I’ve known for years, but not guys I’ve known for a few weeks.
@41:00 – When messaging a chick, don’t make her do work or make a decision on when/where to go out with you. Be as specific (Day + place + time) so she can just say ‘yes’ or ‘no.’
This goes back to the last episode when Charlie was talking about how she has so many guys messaging her and contacting her. She doesn’t want to do any work, not even look at her calendar to see when she’s free to meet you.
I think bringing in a girl to see this in real life would help learn this.
A few years ago I would have been annoyed at this, complained about this shit isn’t fair, I’m probably more interesting than her anyways, why can’t she just tell me when she’s free, how easy is that, she’s being lazy, etc.
Now I look at like she doesn’t know me and doesn’t owe me anything. And there are 100 (maybe more) other random dudes on Tinder who are messaging her, asking her out. So I have to do a little bit more work upfront to make it as easy as possible for her to say yes or no. It’s not fair but that’s what the game is.
Follow-up 24-72 hours later in a warm understanding way, assuming the best case scenario (she just missed the message):
“This may have gotten lost in the shuffle…”
“Hey I’m sure you get tons of messages on here from creepy dudes because you’re cute, I’m just that weird ginger you were going to have ice cream with, wondering if you’re still on board.” (might be too much)
“Hey just wanted to make sure you saw this message. I’m still down for xyz (date + time + place)”
@45:45 – “Close the loop!”
I didn’t get this reference, but Tucker and Charlie thought it was hilarious.
@47:00 – You don’t have to always get coffee. Get whatever you fucking want.
@48:30 – Travel is great conversation topic, after small talk
I suck at telling stories and making traveling interesting. I have a lot of things I’ve done but I suck at remembering and telling a great story.
@49:30 – Talking about Testosterone
Takeaway is to go get a fucking blood test.
Good book on this is The Trouble With Testosterone
Last Week’s Goals
Start a Tinder profile, start messaging girls, and sign up for 1 social group by next week.
I didn't do this last thing, no social groups yet.
This Week’s Goals
- Make more small talk on 1st dates, ask simple questions (only 5 minutes)
- Don’t talk about Tinder in the first hour of a Tinder date
- Go out and conquer (go out on more dates)
- Get a blood test for testosterone