17th of August 2015

Helping Joe, Episode 28 Part 2


In Part 2, Joe talks about another bedroom issue he had with a different woman. Charlie & Nils tell him what can do to avoid this in the future, the two emotional needs women have as clothes start to come off, and why life is easier and more fulfilling when you see women as good friends first.


You can click here (right click, then click save as) to download the episode directly.

Click here to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes.
Click here to subscribe to the podcast on Stitcher.


This episode is sponsored by Land A Job You Love, a course developed by our own Charlie Hoehn about how to work with great entrepreneurs and startups. Click on the link to receive a big discount on the course as a listener of the podcast.


Joe’s Thoughts and Takeaways From This Episode:

Hey this is a running commentary of random thoughts, notes, and takeaways I had during or after this episode. – Joe

@Beginning – It’s the 4th date and we’re in the bedroom, things were heating up

We were getting intimate, kissing, touching, grabbing and after about 15-20 minutes, I was going to take off her shirt and she said,
“What are you doing?”
me: “I’m taking off your shirt”
her: “Why?”
me: “Why the fuck you think?”
her: laughed, kind of embarrassed / nervous

Then we slowed down, stopped, went and watched that movie. We went back to bedroom and she wanted to have sex with me but at that point I didn’t want to have sex with her because she was being weird earlier + I didn’t know if I could get it up again and was self-conscious about that.

They gave me a lot of grief for this because there could have been a bunch of different reasons why she felt uncomfortable like she hasn’t had sex in a while or she was self-conscious about her body, I don’t know.

In that moment I didn’t really know what was going on and I was kind of like wtf? In a calm way. But looking back I probably should’ve been more empathetic.

@7:30 – You are making this girl uncomfortable with that word choice (“fuck”)

Charlie says the word “fuck” turns off girls makes her uncomfortable but I don’t feel like that’s what it was. She was still cool with me after I said it. We just slowed down and stopped because she kind of put the brakes on things by saying “what are you doing” so we went and watched the movie and it was fine.

“She doesn’t want to stop. She wants to slow it down. Or she’s flirting and teasing. Or she wants you to say, ‘Because I’ve been thinking about your naked body for the last 2 hours and it’s all I can do not to jump out of my skin.” – Nils

“Or… ‘Oh my gosh, my hands are out of control. I found you so irresistible I didn’t even notice I was doing that.’ Something, anything not to make her feel uncomfortable.” – Charlie

While she wasn’t being flirty (she didn’t say that in a flirty or playful tone, more of a weird judgmental tone, like I was doing something wrong), yea they are totally right. I blew an easy opportunity to be playful and flirty with her and have fun and this sucks because it was so easy to spin that and be playful but I just didn’t think of it in the moment.

@11:00 – If a girl turns you down, it doesn’t mean things are over (just slow down)

“You mentally switched off after that happened. Later, you weren’t in the mood.” – Charlie

Yep. I just thought she wasn’t ready that night or that it meant she didn’t want to have sex that night and I made a decision not to do it with her.

I wanted it to be a clear ‘yes’ or a clear ‘no’ from her and it wasn’t clear so I defaulted to ‘no’
“That’s not life, that will never be life, ever. The only time when you get yes, yes, yes is when you pay, pay, pay. Life is not black and white. It is a dance.” – Nils

He’s totally right and I was so in my own head or her comment just threw me off for some reason that I forgot this metaphor. I forgot that whole process from first meeting to dating/relationship is a dance and not a series of yes/no switches.

What they (we) somewhat missed here:

Looking back at this, I think the problem was certainty, which we didn’t talk about directly here. We kind of talked around it or used different terms (self-doubt, scripts, black & white analogy) I was uncertain if she really wanted to do this. I didn’t know. And problems with uncertainty have been a theme throughout this series where I’m not sure of something, I get self-conscious, in my head, project negative scenarios, or take myself out of the game. I filled in that information gap (uncertainty) with ‘no she doesn’t want to do this’. And even when she said that she did later, I had like already made up her mind for her which is weird and we talk about this too here.

“You get into those periods of self-doubt when that script that you have in your head has been short-circuited and violated… you got a yes, yes, no, yes, and it fucked everything up.” – Nils
I think he’s talk about uncertainty here.

We both wanted to have sex at some point that night and we didn’t because I was too in my own head.

“You are oblivious to how other people respond to you. That is the part that needs to change for you for you to really take off with all these girls you are dating.” – Nils

@16:00 – How to change this or prevent it from happening in the future

-Slow down
-Pay attention to what she is saying, doing, feeling
-Get out of your head, into the moment
-How you feel, how she feels, how your environment feels

Charlie talks about being more aware of how I’m feeling, how she’s feeling, what the environment is like in the moment, which is something I’m really not that good at right now because I’m usually too much in my own head and worried about my shit to focus on what’s going on around me or what’s going on with her. This is a muscle I need to start building and working out more, even outside of dates.

“Being result-oriented has it’s place in life, but that is not life… you want to get through this process to get to some result that doesn’t exist. This girl is just another part of the journey.” – Nils

@18:30 – Maybe we jumped to conclusions here

Yea this whole situation was hard to explain and get feedback on because there was so much missing context. You know that saying that 90% of what you say is how you say it, not the actual words you use. All they had to go off of here were the words that were used, which were only 10% of what happened or what was going on in that moment. They didn’t recognize that and might have over-reacted. By themselves those words seem harsh, but it just wasn’t bad in the moment.

“In a situation like that she either needs you to make her feel comfortable and safe, OR she needs you to make her feel sexy and desired. She needs you to say it.”

“If you’re in a bedroom with her on the 4th date making out, you’re clearly not an idiot for trying to take her shirt off.”

@23:00 – Weird combination of self-loathing but also emotional detachment / disregard

“The swings of emotion are almost schizophrenic, the swings of emotion. At first, you’re confused and annoyed then you become this weird paternalistic figure who knows better. That is a recipe for toxic relationships.” – Nils

Nils brought up this point all the way back in Episode 9, I think. And it’s kind of the same thing here except it was in the bedroom this time and not at an improv show.

I just thought I knew better about her own emotions and interests than she did which was paternalistic and stupid because at that point I stopped us from having sex and enjoying that experience with her. I don’t know why I do this stupid shit. I just thought I knew better than her because of what she had said earlier and looking back at this, I’m like ‘Wtf? Why would you think you knew better than her? You barely know anything about women.” (internal monologue) … wtf

This also gets back to the emotional / feeling not logic / rational conversation that we’ve had a lot of over this series, back to the first few episodes. And I forgot that it’s a dance and things change.

“Things can change minute to minute… maybe she isn’t quite ready, then she realizes, ‘Wait, what am I doing? I’m a grown woman who is allowed to own her sexuality, and she change her mind. That’s a real possibility that happens a lot… That is the normal script more often than not… It’s a rollercoaster.” – Nils
Again, I was just thinking it was yes/no and that was it.

“In a date scenario it is more like, ‘I like this guy. I want to get to know more about him. See what else we have in common. Kick the tires a little bit. And maybe we’ll hook up.’” – Nils

“The whole talk about staying in the moment and this being a dance is about continuing to have fun with this person and moving toward pleasure.” – Charlie

@35:00 – The disconnect between stated goals and actions

I say that I want to have sex but then when she wanted to have sex and I had this opportunity with her, I didn’t do it. I shut her down. Nils is right, this action was the opposite of my goal. At the time I was just thinking we’ll have sex next time and because she said no earlier that means she isn’t ready now. I was paternalistic and oblivious to the reality that she can change her mind and had changed it through the course of that night.

“It just didn’t happen the way you wanted it to happen. So it all fell apart.” – Nils

I did this same thing with a girl from Tinder in Episode 27.

“You got to keep practicing tapping into your emotions whether it’s through journaling, meditating, or even talking to people on a daily basis about this stuff. Once a week with us is great, but it might not be enough. You need to practice emotional awareness because when you have the that you will be a lot better with other people, but you resist emotions so much and you override them. Continue journaling in a more in depth practice or make it a regular routine to talk to a friend on a regular basis about this stuff because it’s a practice.” – Charlie

“Emotional awareness, empathy, compassion are muscles that get atrophied if you deprive yourself of them.” – Nils

@38:00 – I might be objectifying women

Nils says my word choice, how I talk about women shows that I am objectifying the women that I go out with. I partially disagree. I don’t think that I am objectifying women. I just want to have sex with more women.

“The more you connect with the women you are dating. The more respect you can give them with opinions and volitions. One the one hand it’s the monkey fight and on the other hand maybe you’re a misogynist.” – Nils

I feel like they took the one event here that I told them about (or the few events I have told them about in this series) and blow it up to now I’m a misogynist. I don’t tell them about all the other things we talk about or do or experience in these dates, which is usually good stuff, because we don’t have time for it on the show. I just tell them about them the few problem areas and we try to fix them. I might be stupid, inexperienced, too in my own head, too self-critical, paternalistic, whatever, but I don’t think I’m misogynistic or that I look at women as objects for my pleasure. I should have pushed back more on this episode but I didn’t because at the time I wasn’t sure, maybe they were right.

@41:00 – I’ve never had a good female friend

When they asked if I had any female friends that I would invite to my wedding. I said that no, I don’t. I don’t think that’s a bad thing but it shows one side of why I might be oblivious to how women feel or act. I don’t think this makes me a misogynist though. It shows I suck at making friends.

They talk about relationships they’ve had in the past where they were friends first and those were more fulfilling, better relationships when they had that element of friendship in them:

“We had a lot in common and we like to do a lot of the same things. It was very much the ability to spend non-naked time together that created and perpetuated the relationship. It makes it sustainable.” – Nils

“It’s really important and it’s more fun, fulfilling, life is easier & happier if you view women through the lens of ‘they can be good friends’ too and you cultivate that.” – Charlie

That’s what I’m looking for and with this girl and the HP tattoo girl that I’m dating, that’s how I feel about them. I like hanging out with them and talking with them outside of the bedroom. They are a lot of fun, like the some of the same things that I do, and have a similar sense of humor.

Nils asks me if I could even put myself in the mindset or visualize being friends with a woman, and I’m not sure. He also asks, “Why have you not made more of an effort in your 26 years on earth to make be friends with women?”

That was a great question and I didn’t really have an answer other than “I suck at making friends.”

I was kind of lost in the last part of this episode. And I think they were too. Nils was trying to figure out if I was misogynist or just too in my own head and my answers weren’t helping him. At this point, I was mostly confused, out of it, lying on the floor, and thinking about how shitty I was.

They bring back up the time I got kind of upset at Harry Potter tattoo girl when she said that I was on “show probation” in @38:00 Episode 23. Again, I think they partially missed the point in this episode. I got upset at that because she was criticizing me (even though it was a joke and I was criticizing myself), but they were right about the nice guy misogyny thing (“she owes me”) here. I felt like because I paid for us to go see these fun shows, that she shouldn’t talk shit, which isn’t good.

They ask me if I would react that way to a dude, which doesn’t make any sense because I’m not trying to fuck a dude, I wouldn’t be paying for him and I to go do shit together. We would each pay our own way and it would be cool. It’s a different context.

@55:30 – Charlie’s todo: Go on a friend date with a female friend and have no expectations.

“I think that you can get a lot from it. [It] will give you some insight and clarity into how your interactions with women in non-platonic settings have been so different.” – Nils

I don’t know what insights (“a different emotional response”) he’s talking about, but I guess that why I should go on this friend date.

Join the Mating Grounds Mailing List

Get the voicemail number to ask us your questions directly: