This week on Helping Joe, Joe has a breakthrough with the best date he has ever been on. Charlie & Tucker break down why and how this date went so well. Joe also unknowingly blows off another woman who wanted to have sex with him. The guys share similar funny personal stories. And they end the podcast talking with Joe about how to deal with toxic, judgmental people in his life.
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Joe’s Thoughts and Takeaways From This Episode:
Hey this is a running commentary of random thoughts, notes, and takeaways I had during or after this episode. – Joe
@Beginning – One of best dates I’d ever been on (our 2nd date):
-I had a great warm-up going in:
Sweated out my anxiety playing in a park with Charlie. Just being active, around people I like, relaxing in the sun. I was a little sweaty and dirty when I showed up but I really didn’t care and neither did she.
-I went to The Hideout and ran into 2-3 people I knew:
She thought I was popular, which is hilarious given where I started in this series. I thought social status was overrated. Probably because I never had any. Tucker & Charlie disagree:
“High social status might be one of the most important things. It’s prestige.”
“Haven’t you ever seen Ground Hog’s Day? At the end of the movie, he gets the girl because everyone in the city is like ‘that guy’s awesome.’”
-We saw a great improv show.
It was her first time seeing a show like that and she loved it. I knew she liked standup a lot but wasn’t sure about improv. This was something I liked a lot and figured she would too. I was right. It was a lot of fun.
-We went to my favorite cocktail bar which had live music. She liked that place a lot. We had a great time there.
-We went to another show that was really funny. It was a great night.
The next date wasn’t as good (3rd date):
It wasn’t as fun as that last date, my energy was low, hers was low, the place (café) was cool but chill. I was thinking maybe we don’t have a good connection and it was a great date because of all this stuff we were doing, not because we were a good match or there was a connection. This is what we try to figure out here.
@1:30 – “Why did you not care?” Pre-date warm-ups
I wasn’t self-conscious at all on this date like I normally am and Charlie asks me about this. I think it was a bunch of different things:
1) It was a 2nd date, less pressure, less uncertainty
2) I worked out (ran around in a park)
3) With Charlie and his friends
4) In the sun
“How do you exercise?” – Charlie
“He runs over himself in his mind.” – Tucker
This was a great joke that didn’t get as many laughs as it should have here.
I do a lot of low intensity stuff like running, air squats, pushups, leg presses.
“Different types of exercise are better. You did a social form of running around while having friends with fun in the sun in the fresh air. That’s very different than doing air squats in your closet.” – Charlie
Haha yep. 95% of the time I work out alone. This is stupid.
“Interacting with other people made you feel better, not being alone in your homeless encampment running through what a loser you were in your head.”
Yea I need to stop fucking around and join crossfit or some consistent group class. I love to workout, I should be doing this and meeting women (and men) who like to workout.
“Throughout the week you should be doing that kind of stuff leading up to dates or anything that you want to be ON for.” – Charlie
Yea that’s a great point. Nils talked about this in our how to have fun and relax on first dates Q&A. He said that he talks to everyone he can when on his way to big meeting.
@4:00 – Go to places where you feel comfortable
“Have 2-5 date places that you always take women. Places where you know the bartenders or you know people there, the layout, cool things to order.
Date 10 is where you discover things together.
Date 1, 2, 3 are you showing her you have friends, you know things, you’re capable, you have a network… that’s why it was one of the best dates you’ve ever been on.” – Tucker
“You’re now constructing this sphere around yourself of friends you have, places you go, activities you do that you feel comfortable with and you’re good at and you can bring women into that. THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT WE TEACH IN THE BOOK AND THE PODCAST.” – Tucker
“You are doing it, putting all the piece together. This is like the karate kid. He’s been painting the fence and waxing the car for weeks now and doesn’t know why he’s doing any of it. And now all of a sudden the dude can fight. It’s the same thing… You put it all together and it was the best date you’ve ever had.” – Tucker
That was a cool compliment, also funny.
“You have a template of where to take girls on dates. You have a set of 5-6 things that you like doing and places to go and environments where you feel comfortable and you can mix and match those in whatever way you want.” – Tucker
Yep, he’s right. I have a lot of places I like now where I can go and show other people what’s up and have fun with them there. Places where I know what to order, I know the waiters, bartenders, managers, or performers (1-2 people at each place, not a lot but still solid). It’s so much easier than trying to figure out a new place or going to into a foreign environment while also trying to figure out or get to know a new girl.
“You’ve built a small life for yourself and it’s going to get bigger and richer and better.” – Tucker
Yea but I have to keep doing the work, which is a problem I have had in the past. I have a tendency to get lazy, stop doing things as much as I used to, don’t keep taking risks or get too comfortable and lazy. I did this earlier in the show on Episode 21 and they pointed it out. I stopped going out on first dates because I got comfortable with one woman.
“The jokes have started to outweigh the goddamnits under his breath.” – Tucker
@13:00 – What to do with bossy women
When a bossy woman, gives you an order. Just do the opposite with a smile.
This is what Tucker does. I don’t know if I’m there yet, haha.
Tucker talks about being funny VS being an immature douche and gives me some good ideas for how to be funny in a small way without burning down a bridge. Without a doubt he is the mf expert on both sides of this.
“Generally speaking, a very bossy woman is looking for someone strong to boss her back but in an authoritative way. You have to own (be) it. To tease her:
1) Come back at her, not like an asshole, strong & bossy too, with a smile (not me)
2) Test her in a way that she can back off. Make her back up but do it playfully. Not a direct challenge. (Do this for next time!)
Tucker also mentioned that when she said, “I’m going to throw you out of the restaurant if you get my menus dirty,” this was a ridiculous absolute statement. She’s not actually going to do it.
Here’s how bad I am at social interactions:
I thought she might be serious when she said this because I don’t know… I don’t know her, I had never been there before, her body language and tone was pretty serious. I just got a little nervous and decided not to test her to see if that was true.
@18:00 – Improv jam (practice) Round 2
I talked about this at the end of Episode 26 (the last episode) @ 1:06:30 where I went to this practice and didn’t hang out with people after.
This time I actually connected afterwards with a cute girl I had seen in a show earlier.
I thought I should have gotten her number here. Charlie & Tucker say no:
“This is a great example of why the shit pickup artists teach is ineffective… when you have actually friends, social groups, and communities, you see people over and over. You don’t have to operate like socially ostracized lone wolf.”
“You’re a member of that community and you know people she knows. Now she knows you to talk to you. So now you’re a mile ahead of any guy who is trying to hit on you because you’re a known quantity.”
“Next time, she’s your friend. Someone you know. Go talk to her. If she’s into you, go get a drink after class.”
“You don’t have to ask for a girl’s number in the first interaction unless you’re pretty sure that you will never run into her again.” – Charlie
Go out in a group setting, talk to her then. “If you have status and prestige in that group, she is going to be 10X more attracted to you… than if you’re just some weirdo by himself at a bar.”
I’ve never really met girls like this because I’ve never had good social groups so I don’t know how to do this. I’ve already fucked up in a way with the improv girl from earlier who was into me and now won’t respond to a text.
Tucker talks about being so good in the group/tribe that girls come to you. I’m still a long way off from this point I think. I don’t believe that I could be like this but he does. Haha I’ve never really been like this, so I don’t know what it looks like or how to even pull it off.
This (above) is the difference between a creepy predator (pickup artists) VS an actual fun guy to hang out with
@25:00 – Update from girl in last episode that wanted to sleep with me
So this was to be our 2nd meeting or date or whatever. I asked her to come over and watch something. She said yes. Then canceled the day before.
We talk about deeper reasons why I didn’t sleep with her the first night we met. Tucker points out that things didn’t go so well the first time I had sex with the last woman. Yea this is one reason why I didn’t want to sleep with her. I was also embarrassed about my room situation.
I talked about this story she told of a guy she called a “scumbag” but she still slept with him multiple times and I was kind of stunned that she put up with this dude. It was a hilarious story because this was the worst guy she had met on Tinder. Just a fucking asshole but she still fucked him because he was attractive.
@29:00 – What a girl will do when she wants to come over
This girl I was with said that she could drive me home even though she knew I was within walking distance of my place. There was no logical reason for her to drive me other than I want to sleep with him but I don’t want to come right out and say it.
“That’s the closest a girl can get to saying ‘I want to fuck you’ without her internal slut alarms going off.”
When I said no… she took it as a rejection… God damn it….
I just thought I’ll definitely have sex with her next time. Now, there won’t be a next time.
I don’t think this is the same thing as the “meh” in Episode 7 but it’s close or on that spectrum of self-sabotage.
Tucker & Charlie tell a few stories about when they were this clueless (TUCKER WAS 32 WHEN THIS HAPPENED), which were funny, especially Tucker’s last story.
This hyper-rationalizing is all guys. Something like this doesn’t make any sense on it’s face, but if you look just a little deeper and pay attention to her you can see what’s going on.
She’s trying to get over to your place but not look like a slut doing it.
I never really think much about this stuff in the moment. Hoping I can take this and see it next time.
@33:00 – Why I said ‘no’
I didn’t like her all that much on an emotional level or as a person, but she was attractive physically and I would have had fun sleeping with her.
“That’s another problem with the pickup artist mentality… There’s no emotional interaction or concern.” – Tucker
Tucker went through a phase were he slept with a lot of women that he was into physically but not emotionally.
“Men or women who are extremely promiscuous, however that’s defined in a culture, are usually running from or burying other issues through sex.” – Tucker
“If you were attracted to her and wanted to sleep with her and you didn’t, we should talk about why you didn’t because it’s probably gets to underlying issues that might be important.” – Tucker
Fears I had, why I didn’t want her to come back that night:
1) ED, what if I didn’t get hard. She already talked about 1 guy who had this
2) My shitty room and her potential negative reaction to it
“Part of having a shitty place is about giving yourself the excuse to get out of these things.” – Tucker
Yep. This sucks because it’s unconscious, it’s stupid, but yea I think it’s there.
“Fear of a woman rejecting, mocking, laughing at you is a deep fear… in small groups, sexual humiliation is one of the worst things that can happen to a guy. And you have a lot of past traumatic experiences with female rejection.” – Tucker
So it makes total sense that I would have this fear or feel this way.
@41:30 – A woman’s decision to have sex
“The internal decision to have sex is not a light-switch thing, it goes back and forth.”
This is a lot different than me and probably every other guy who decides to have sex and is just ready to go. I just thought it was like a light-switch. I have to build it up to a point where she says yes and wants to do it, then we’re good to go. Not how it works.
“Think about all the irrational insecurities and issues that you have. Girls have those too. Right up to the moment where you’re about to have sex.” – Charlie
There are a thousand reasons why she might change her mind or no longer be interested. Common ones are she’s not in the mood or she found somebody else.
I blew this opportunity and in the moment with her didn’t I really understand what was going on at all.
There are so many factors influencing her decision that I don’t really even take into consideration or conscious think about. They talk about a bunch of them here like drinking (her or you), showering (her or you), last time she had sex, the setting, and many more.
“Don’t be so ego-centric to think that you did something wrong every time. I would say 70-80% of the time, it’s NOT about you.”
@46:00 – Replacing emotional intimacy with sexual intimacy
Maybe she didn’t want to be alone that night.
The Mate mating goals test: I read an advanced copy of this book and was right on the border between short and medium term relationships.
Why I don’t want to go back to her place, have her drive me there:
Tucker brings back up a point that Nils made way back in Episode 12 about me having some deep-seated chauvinism or misogyny.
I think that it’s probably more of a trust issue. I don’t know.
I have trouble figuring this out or processing this or thinking of what I’m going to say here and I blurt out, “I don’t trust her opinion about her own thoughts and feelings.” – Me
This is chauvinism I guess. I hate admitting this because I don’t think that’s who I am.
Tucker talks about how the more I recognize this in myself, the less I will project it onto a woman and the more I can interact with her for who she is instead of projecting onto her these issues that I have:
“The better you get at not projecting onto a woman all your issues and past and just deal with her as a person, the better relationships that you will have.” – Tucker
“Empathy is a muscle.” – Charlie
I should have asked them how do build it, how do I get more reps.
They would have probably responded, “This is it right here. Keep doing what you are doing.”
They also comment on how I seem happier around them and I am to be honest.
Life is better when you have more people in it and are dating lots of women.
I don’t have any more days where I just hate myself or get down and can’t get out it.
For a long time, last 2-3 years, there were just days, usually 1-2 days at a time 1x or 2x a month, where I didn’t want to do anything, felt off, like in a funk or depressed or whatever for no good reason. I just woke up and didn’t want to do shit.
At the time I thought my brain chemistry was fucked up, there was just something wrong with the chemicals in my brain at the time and I had to wait for them to reset or whatever. This might have been caused by lack of good sleep or not working out. Usually yoga or fasting or sleeping a lot would help but not always.
Maybe it was just that I didn’t have enough social interactions or face-time with people and that made me depressed for those short times. I don’t know.
Tucker talks a lot about relationships being the most important thing for health and longevity, I remember that 75-year study Harvard did where they found that for men it was strength of relationships that was the biggest corollary with a long or good life.
We’ve talked about this on the podcast before, especially in the beginning like Episode 3 when I was looking for a solutions to low testosterone, but I didn’t really internalize it.
@51:00 – Talking with mom. When she was young and dating, she was like me
A shared a few stories here that were funny and revealing.
My mom deflected or didn’t appreciate compliments and positive feedback from people she was dating.
The thing about the car was a tie back all the way to Episode 8 when the girl I went out with had a red mustang convertible. I had no car and thought I couldn’t date her.
Also revealing about my dad, he bought a car the same way I bought stupid t-shirts.
When my mom told me this, I was kind of stunned because I had done the same fucking thing. Weird.
@55:30 – Male teasing VS attacking … how I felt after talking with my roommate
This goes back to Episode 22, when we first started talking about how I really don’t know how to interact with male friends that well, teasing, etc.
I had a lot of trouble remembering the specifics of the conversation. I just remember the event and how I felt after. I don’t remember what we said back and forth. I just remember I felt like I lost the exchange, he was being a piece of shit, and I was angry. I don’t remember the words we said back and forth thought.
So I just talked about past times this same thing has happened where I did remember the words he said so I could at least give them some context for how this went down or goes down in general.
At first I thought, maybe I just took this too hard and this was playful banter that I suck at and I was just being a bitch or lame for not going with it.
After talking with Tucker & Charlie about this I realized no I was right, none of this was playful banter. I just live with a judgmental, toxic, person.
Their advice on dealing with a toxic person is to avoid them. Since I can’t really avoid this guy I live with, here’s some specific advice they gave for dealing with a judge type of person.
“People who have been severely judged in their own life, some deal with it by being toxic and judgmental of others. The way you beat those people is to be extremely judgmental of them when they judge you. Fight fire with fire.” – Tucker
“You aren’t going to love a toxic person into being nice. They are going to change on their own or not. The best thing to do is to just not hang out with them.” – Tucker
“Just limit your interactions with them.” – Charlie
I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes, he’s a good person, but most of the time he sucks and is a drain.
“How many times do you have to put your nose over shit to know it’s shit?”
Yea, he’s right. I give people too many chances.
@1:03:00 – Replaying old psychological traumas
Tucker thinks I am replaying old psychological patterns or traumas, replaying the same story so I can make sense of it. I have no idea how this works.
“The brain resolves issues by replaying them (dreaming).
That’s why story is so important.
People who can’t afford therapy rewrite their life story in a way that makes sense and guides them to the right direction.
It’s really effective because that’s what your unconscious does. It re-writes this story to solve this trauma. The only way it can do that is by re-creating it in the present.”
Yea I have no idea how this works in my own life but it makes sense I guess, especially when you look at how PTSD works.
@1:05:00 – Story writing
It’s funny because I read this book and have had this journaling / story-writing exercise sitting on my desk for weeks but just haven’t gotten around to doing it.
It’s called Writing To Heal and the basic exercise is 20 minutes a day for 4 days. They give you prompts for each day and you just write with out stopping about a past trauma.
A lot of the research shows that people who do this feel better (happier, less sad) for weeks or months after doing it. Some people have higher immunity and go to the doctor less (they are less sick) after doing this writing exercise, which is amazing I think.
Tucker also mentions Redirect by Timothy Wilson
“Your life is not what happens to you, it is how you interpret it, for the most part. This is just science catching up with 5,000 years of Buddhism. You can interpret your life in a way that you don’t have to suffer all this internal pain and anguish.”
Assignment for next week is to do that exercise and talk about it here.