In this special episode of Helping Joe, everybody (Tucker, Charlie, Nils, & Joe) is in the same room to talk about Joe’s progress and problems over the last few weeks. They talk with him about how women test men to get honest signals, what building real confidence looks like, and what dreams are really all about. They also dive deeper into his core issues and how to get over them so he can be more attractive to new women he’s meeting.
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Joe’s Thoughts and Takeaways From This Episode:
Hey this is a running commentary of random thoughts, notes, and takeaways I had during or after this episode. – Joe
@Beginning – This is the first episode where all 4 of us were on
They start off with some jokes and this is pretty funny. I can’t remember if I laughed at this or not. I probably did.
@3:30 – update with the improv girl
After not seeing her for a while, she came back to class all bubbly and said “I still want to hang out.” So I was like ok cool we’re on!
Tucker says her earlier blow off was a test and gives an example of a test: When making out, women will say they are not not ready for sex or don’t want to go too fast, sometimes honestly and sometimes as a test.
“The way you react to things she does is a way she figures out more about you and measures your attractiveness. How you respond to being turned down is a test. Not conniving or premeditated.” – Tucker
How you react is an honest signal.
She tested me by blowing me off and I wasn’t desperate or didn’t chase her so now she thinks I’m attractive. I think that’s how this works. I don’t know. “You like her but you don’t need her.”
These are unconscious tests, women just do them. I am usually completely oblivious to these tests and don’t think about them. It’s pretty clear though when Tucker points it out here.
And after leaving that awful audio message (Episode 18 P2 @ 18:00), I felt like it couldn’t get much worse so I didn’t really care about what happened with her. If it went well great but it can’t get much worse than what I already did.
@7:00 – Charlie’s story about his friend
Charlie’s friend was asked out by a guy she worked with. She didn’t want to go out with and turned him down. Next day he punched out a window in anger and had to quit. He worked there 7 years and left like a douche because he got rejected. Wtf.
And that’s an extreme case but most women have had this situation on some level where they don’t want to go out with a guy or give them their # or whatever and he reacts in a nasty or threatening way. I can totally understand why she would want to test guys and find out he’s crazy early instead of going out or being alone with him then finding that out. Also it helps to realize that woman’s biggest fear is physical harm from a dude. Helps put this in perspective.
@9:00 – My progress, getting better
“If you fill your life with lots of things, then any one bad thing that happens is not that big of a deal… You don’t have to look like you have other things going on. You actually do have other things going on. You used to pretend that you have a life and now you have a life.” This was a nice compliment from Tucker
This is a big key to emotional health, which translates to being more attractive to women. “You have other legs to stand on when bad things happen.”
Yea this is something I never learned and is not really taught by anyone anywhere. Not my parents, definitely not school. I guess they thought it was just common sense to have friends and do things and kids would pick that up, but for whatever reason I just didn’t. Actually my mom probably tried to teach me this but I just ignored her because she didn’t really practice what she taught. She always told me to be more social or go do things but then she never did things and was a workaholic and didn’t really have any good advice other than “you should go do this” or “you play video games too much”
@10:00 – New Tinder girl update
So this was weird. She waited like 4 days to text me back after the first meet / date. I was so down on myself for fucking up or having a bad date, like so down on myself, go listen to the last episode before this one. There could be a thousands reasons why she didn’t text back. I picked the worst one: It was because of me.
@12:00 – Didn’t care about the outcome of improv scenes = great class
I talked about my “soggy” scene. This was pretty funny.
We talk a bit about why this class went so well and why I didn’t care. We probably spent too much time talking about this. I should have been more clear and said, “I didn’t care about the outcome or consequences,” because I do care about the class.
But Tucker makes a good point about a lot of bad advice out there that guys should just “not care” or “not give a fuck”
“Someone who is very confident in themselves and in their abilities and in their situation can come off as not giving a fuck but that’s not what it is. They don’t feel the need to project anything.” – Tucker
@18:00 – “Joe doesn’t know what confidence feels like” – Tucker
This was partially true. I haven’t been socially confident in a long time (1-2 years probably) with people who weren’t family or very close friends. This kind of sad but I just thought I was bad at it and that’s the way I was and I didn’t do a whole lot to improve that.
“What you have now is confidence with a group of people and it might be small, but it’s a fucking start.” – Tucker
@21:00 – LeBron James example
Tucker uses LeBron James as an example of not giving a fuck and confidence. And mentioned his game 5 post-game interview showed his lack of confidence after a bad game.
@24:00 – “You need to accept that you have confidence. ” – Tucker
It’s NOT, ‘I did it this time.’ it’s ‘I can do this.’”
My immediate reaction to getting picked to do a show was “I gotta bail.” But I didn’t. I went and I was nervous and I still did well. I won the monkey fight. That was cool. And I had a great time. I was on stage with some of the best people (1 guy in particular) that I’ve seen do improv.
@26:30 – My weird dreams and what they mean
I said one word in a weird way… “sure” … and they ran that and it was pretty funny.
Nils is awesome making fun of me here, “He’s like a hostile witness about himself.”
“The only thing he has confidence in is dismissing your compliments.”
“It was a weird dream because I woke up feeling good about myself.”
I had a really cool dream that was a big signal that I am unconsciously feeling more positive about myself.
“What’s going on right now is that the changes you have made have become habits and you’re starting to see conscious, front brain changes AND deep unconscious changes. Your brain is re-wiring itself in a positive way.” – Tucker
“It’s like self-esteem inception.” – Nils
@32:00 – Tucker’s crazy dream and how dreams work
Man, this was fucking nuts. If I had that dream, I would bury it and never talk about that shit ever. I would just feel so much shame and fear about it.
“Your dreams bring up your biggest fears, insecurities, issues come up like a movie.”
“This is proof that Helping Joe is working deeply. You are starting to re-see yourself in your unconscious.”
@37:00 – I take too much responsibility for things I shouldn’t
Like first dates going well or the girl liking me (out of my control) and again here with the the Helping Joe series is another one of them. It’s not my responsibility to make an awesome podcast out of this. I just have to go out with women and interact with them and report back on it.
@38:00 – “Show probation” and my reaction to it.
I felt like I was venting here but also felt bad about getting this out because it was ridiculous. She was making a joke and I took it the wrong way.
“You’re the one who said the show sucked… She took your premise and extended it in a joking manner, being playful with you. You know how she was being playful? Because there’s no such thing as show probation.” – Nils
“Intellectually or rationally, you know she’s kidding about something that you already started joking about so she thought it was cool. You know her intention was playful but you had an opposite emotional reaction.” – Tucker
Yep. I know she was kidding and I don’t know why I took it the wrong way.
@44:00 – Tucker gives an example of an emotional trigger for him
When he was a kid his mom was really negative in a certain nagging way so now as an adult when he encounters that behavior he has an unconscious emotional reaction to it.
Nils thinks my identity is unconsciously wrapped around my choices. If I make good choices (pick good shows) = good person, if I pick bad ones = I’m bad.
“You can say the show is shitty to preempt the criticism, but when she takes the premise and runs with it you say, ‘who the fuck do you think you are.’” – Nils
Yea I realize how ridiculous and somewhat funny this is.
Charlie points out that paying for all these shows is something that isn’t easy for me because I’m tight with $.
Nils points out that because I think she has a lower mate value, her playful teasing might sting more. I disagree but he might be right. I don’t know.
Both valid points, though.
Tucker brings back up the guilt/arrogance thing I have of dating someone who I think wants more out of this relationship than I do even though she’s told me that she’s cool and happy with where, we’re at. We talked about this at the end of the last episode. It was pretty funny because Tucker and Charlie were both exasperated with my nonsense at that point.
Nils thinks it might be a trust issue in what other people say.
“He’s unconsciously reading her statement as a put down or violating his trust and exposed emotions, not as play which is what she’s intending it to be.” – Tucker
This stuff was all pretty confusing for me which I think is obvious if you listen to this and they try to work though that here so I understand what’s going on. Also, it’s normal to be confused about this stuff because nobody teaches you how to figure out and deal with your own emotions and psychology and nobody talk about it. Very few people even have a good basic understanding of unconscious emotions, emotional problems, and emotional triggers.
@54:00 – Conversation I had with her about this
I knew that if she said this again it would bother me so I talked wither about it and it was kind of an awkward conversation because when she asked me, “Why does it bother you?” I really didn’t have an answer.
“Even though she’s really confused, that’s a great start. Now, fill in the gaps for her.”
“Your choices are a part of your identity. Every single choice (where to go, what to say, what to wear) that you made was a reflection of you value/identity.” – Nils
Yea this isn’t even something I realize. I take it way to hard and beat myself up when I feel like I made the wrong choice or the outcome didn’t go the way I wanted even though it was largely out of my control. I do my best to prepare or plan but things are going to go the way they go and there’s not a whole lot I can do about that.
I think Nils is onto something here when he talks about the scripts running in my head and why I self-criticize. His explanation @1:05:00 is really good here. And I started the self-criticism. She didn’t hate on me, I was hating on myself and she just ran with it in a playful way because that’s who I am. We like to joke around a play together a lot.
@1:01:00 – “You’re taking responsibility for other people’s performances”
1) The performance of comedians in the show
2) Her enjoying the show
Both of these are totally out of my control but I still felt bad about the crappy comedians and would have felt bad if she didn’t like the show… wtf.
This was a great point by Charlie and I’m groaning here in the audio because I realize how stupid and arrogant and gross it was to do this.
Nils try to figure out what this is:
– Is this a fundamental lack of trust in what other people think
– Is this a narcissism and arrogance
– Or is it you make the right choices -> you have good taste -> you’re a good person (in my head)
“Having the right opinion or judgment validates you as a person. If you went to a good show, that shows you are a good person who has value. When in reality, what she will remember is not where you went but what you did, how you talked to each other, and how you made her feel.” – Nils
Such a fucking good point and this is another consequence of thinking with a checklist mentality of trying to get everything right. I focus on all the details instead of what really matters, the emotional connection and being there with her.
“Criticizing the show and criticizing you, your unconscious interprets those as the same thing.” – Tucker
Yep! He recommends re-reading the part about Daring Greatly on shame VS guilt.
Instead of saying “that sucks” or “well that sucked” I say “I suck” which is fucked up. I don’t know why I do this but I think that I really act this way. Maybe I’m just an awful perfectionist.
@1:05:00 – Having a conversation with her to explain this so she’s not just confused
I really don’t want to talk about this again because it’s been like 2-3 weeks since this happened. But if it comes up again and I get that same gut feeling or emotional reaction to something that is innocuous, I need to have this talk so she understands why I am this way or why I take things seriously when she is joking.
Tucker says it’s good for me and for her. He’s right but I still don’t want to bring this back up. I just have to figure out a good time to do it.
Women do this same thing in a different way when you criticize what they look like or what they wear.
I’m not arrogant
When she said that she liked the show, I didn’t think less of her = no arrogance here. I’ll admit there were some funny jokes and other people were laughing in the audience. I just thought it kinda sucked. This is good, means I’m not arrogant. Great sign.
The outcome of your date choices does not reflect who you are.
“In your head, your choices are a reflection of your value and your identity. To get out of this, frame it as ‘checking something new out and have no idea if it will be any good.’” – Nils
Don’t take ownership of the show. It’s something you do together, not a way of proving your value to her.
This is great advice and something I don’t do. I totally look at date locations, where we go, and what we do as a way of proving to her that I’m cool.
@1:11:00 – Lunchtime sex
The girl I’m dating started coming over on her lunch break, we have sex, and it’s awesome. They make a bunch of jokes about this. I like doing this and I know she loves it because she hates her job.