13th of April 2015

Helping Joe, Episode 11


This week of Helping Joe is a continuation of Episode 10 where Joe talks about recent dates with girls from episodes 7, 8, and 9 and new girls he is seeing. Tucker and Charlie break down his irrational, ineffective thoughts and explain how to replace them to get better with women. They also get into advice on texting, going back to her place, being honest and funny about your insecurities, and why you don’t need to have all your shit together before a woman will be very into you.


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Joe’s Thoughts and Takeaways From This Episode:

Hey this is a running commentary of random thoughts, notes, and takeaways I had during or after this episode. – Joe


  • What you feel is what you feel. Emotions are valid. Just try to figure out WHY.
  • Share interesting stuff about yourself on a date, but learn more about her.
  • How to flip an unattractive or low status area of your life (be honest and funny)
  • How NOT to fuck up communication via text
  • Why audio messages are better than text messages
  • The difference between being a nice guy VS a doormat
  • If you live in a shithole, here’s how to bring up going back to her place
  • You don’t need everything for a woman to be very attracted to you

@beginning – Reconnecting with girl I texted “Meh” to in Episode 7

This was the chick who I had a great time with, one of best dates in Austin. But I fucked up when texting her and Tucker blew up in Episode 7.

I followed their advice, texted her, and was able to setup a 2nd date but I felt shitty going into it because another idiot girl legit flaked and the chemistry just wasn’t there anymore even though we had a fun time earlier.

@2:30 – Earlier, another Tinder chick that blew me off the same day

I confirmed earlier in the day. She said yes.
I got to Vino Vino on time. She texted she was late.
Ok cool, I waited ~45 minutes.
I texted her, didn’t hear back so I left.
She texted me “I’m here” 1.5 hours after the original time we were supposed to meet.
I didn’t text back, didn’t care anymore, and was just annoyed.

This probably wasn’t that big a deal but I took it more personally than I should have.

@4:00 – “Why do you have a code on your phone … it’s like putting pennies in a bank vault.”

Tucker’s a weirdo. Everyone has codes on their phones. I’m not sure why he was giving me shit for this. Just because he’s comfortable letting people read and go through shit on his phone doesn’t mean that everybody should be.

And Charlie reads texts in seductive Joe voice

One of her texts: “Sounds good, you big delicious ginger.”

@6:00 – What happened with her

I wasn’t into her any more. I was attracted to other girls. The last 2 dates weren’t as fun as the first one, and I just lost interest.

“If you’re not into a girl, you’re not into her… What you feel is what you feel. Your emotions are valid. We are just trying to figure out why.” – Tucker

“If you actually think you are low status then a girl tells you that you are not, you will push yourself away from her.” – Tucker

This might be the same thing as the former fat guy Q&A they did, where the results and evidence is staring you in the face but you still think you suck or are fat.

“Don’t fight what you feel [with women].” – Tucker

@10:30 – Charlie’s problem.

He talked about being in relationships he knew weren’t going to work but sticking in them because of commitment bias (sunk cost fallacy) or he felt like it was the right thing to do and he had to do it even though he knew it wasn’t going to work.

@11:30 – Tucker talks about Sex And The City episode

The moral of the story is to date who you want to date, feel what you want to feel, and be cool with that, instead of doing or feeling what the cool thing or high status thing is. If you wanna date fat women, go date fat women. It’s ridiculous to date women you’re not into (skinny supermodels) as a status symbol.

Not my problem, but many guys think, “What I like is not okay so I have to publicly be into something else.” Guys who secretly like fat women probably feel this way, especially when their friends make fun of them, which is kinda fucked up. Also this comes out in super religious guys (sometimes politicians) who are into weird things and get caught and it’s a big scandal.

13:30 – Update on girl from Episode 8

This was another cute Latin girl I took to get gelato. I wrote notes about her in those show notes.

Charlie was funny here. “Hell week?! I’ll show you hell week!”

16:00 – We talk about speed dating from Episode 9

This is hilarious. Tucker recounts and describes my clothes / fashion leaving his apartment and Charlie makes jokes. Also funny here.

18:30 – My crazy thoughts leaving speed dating and over-rating male competition

This is funny, just my automatic thoughts as I was exiting this speed dating thing and looking at the people around me.

19:30 – I matched with 1 girl, had a great date, and remembered details

I think this was a big improvement just because I remembered the interesting stuff about her and Tucker didn’t have to yell at me to stop characterizing.

“Share interesting stuff about yourself, but err on side of learning stuff about her, but don’t interrogate her.”

This is a great point they bring up about balancing finding out things about her and telling her interesting stuff about yourself. Right now I tend to ask too many questions and am an interviewer instead of sharing and being vulnerable. I fill uncomfortable space in a convo by asking more questions. Getting better about this though. Their advice here was talk more about her in dates 1-2, get to know her, but also talk about yourself, not as much but still important.

This is what Nils talked about when he said conversation was a dance, not an interview or quiz. That analogy really tied together all these things they were saying because I get dancing.

21:30 – “There are plenty of times I’ve left a bar with a girl and we don’t have sex but I spend the night at her place, really common.”

This is new for me. I usually don’t go back to her place, in the past it has always been mine. Yea this was confusing, probably because I’m inexperienced or we usually go back to my place.

22:30 – Being honest and self-deprecating about your shitty living situation and low status

They give some great tips and scripts here for how to tell a girl you live like a hobo, be funny about it, and go back to her place. Be honest about it and make a joke.

  • “I would love to keep hanging out with you, but I’m super self-conscious about my place because it is kind of a disaster right now. Is there anywhere you suggest we could go?”
  • “I just moved into my place and I am sleeping on a mattress on the floor like homeless person, so I’m not going to take you back there.”
  • [When read to leave] “I would love to invite you back to my place but I just moved in (see above).”

To be honest, I can’t see myself doing this. I’m still insecure about this.
I will just have to practice and then try it out, see how it goes.

Here’s the thing though and they are right: She probably lived like this at one point in her life and can understand and relate to it.

From Mate: “90% of women would rather be with a funny, interesting husband than a rich boring husband.” But I’m not middle-class. I’m fucking poor.

@24:30 – “Yes and…” for whatever situation you are in, you like it and who you are, and go with that (Improv Lesson)

Charlie has some great advice here about how to talk about or joke about Car2Go.

Whatever situation you are in, you like it and it is good.

@26:30 – With this chick I feel better than her in at least 1 way, my age

I am clueless and Tucker gets upset. Listening to this, I sound pretty stupid.

I thought my mate value was higher because I was younger, but turns out that was totally wrong. I just had all these other things going for me.

@29:00 – “Let her decide she’s out of your league.”

@30:00 – “I think Joe is actually secretly arrogant in a weird way.”

I think Tucker might be right about this. This is something weird I do where I’m arrogant about what I know.

You’re thinking that their opinion, if it doesn’t align with yours in a negative way, is invalid:
Her opinion is wrong VS she’s a bad judge of improv shows. I thought her opinion was wrong which was arrogant.

@33:30 – She got sick and I texted her “Maybe I gave you gingervitis”

Charlie reads my texts and there’s some cringe-worthy stuff here.

Tucker makes a great joke.

I am terrible at texting sometimes. I just took this too far, made 1 too many jokes.

@36:30 – The context of jokes and staying consistent with you are

This is why being like Tucker would never work for me.

@37:30 – When women are sick or at the gym…

They feel repulsively unattractive and anything you say to convince them otherwise is a waste of time or makes them feel worse.”

Show empathy, concern, offer help (she won’t take it).

38:30 – Great advice about texting. How to text, not fuck up over text

“If you aren’t going to say it in-person, don’t text it.” – Charlie
Follow your gut when you think it’s too risky or too much via text.

Hard to impress over text and easy to fuck up over text. The goal is just to get to the next face to face interaction.

“I have sold millions of books because of how I can put words on a page, but even I don’t try to woo over text … It should be just functional to you. That’s it.”

Charlie reiterates the audio message thing he does and why girls like this:
– There’s less room for error.
– Removes ambiguity. She doesn’t have to read between the lines.
– She can hear your voice and your emotion.

@42:00 – Difference between being a nice guy and a door mat

“You are a nice guy!” – Tucker

“But this is different from being a doormat.” – Charlie

I’ve misunderstood being a doormat VS being a kind person for most of my life. The idea of a Tender Defender, balancing kindness with assertiveness, that they talk a lot about on the podcast and in Mate is something I’m just learning about and need to go back and listen to.

I have trouble accepting “being nice” and focusing on it as a strength because a lot of crap I’ve read and bad ideas I’ve picked up talk about doing the opposite: being an asshole, dick, cock & funny, guy with an edge. When someone says “you are nice and kind” I kind of feel like a pussy. I don’t why, I just do. It’s the whole “nice guys finish last” thing (or with Tucker’s book Assholes Finish First).

It’s a part of who I am but I don’t look at it as a strength, which is stupid when looking at the empirical evidence, women like nice guys. Around the world, kindness is in the top 3 things women look for.

On our first date, the nurse even mentioned the best thing about her best friend’s husband was that he was a good guy, an angel, haha. And she talked a lot about her sister’s boyfriend who was an asshole and how she hated him and thought her sister could do a lot better.

@44:00 – What I should text and sending an audio message

Tucker gives a good text idea to send. Great thing with audio is that you can re-record it if you fuck up and doesn’t get misinterpreted through text.

@46:00 – How to bring up going back to her place.

Next date would be the 3rd date and I want to take her dancing. The 3rd date is the sex date in American culture. So do we go back to her place or mine?

My idea was to invite myself over to her place for dinner another time. This was quickly shut down by Tucker. Again, my instincts are wrong 9 times out of 10. Like George Constanza in Seinfeld, I should just do the opposite.

I felt too insecure about talking about how my place sucked and I live like a bum because I haven’t bought furniture yet. I really didn’t want to have this conversation but it seems inevitable.

“Instead of routing around a problem, why don’t you just be honest and face it head on.” – Tucker

“Try that again but you like yourself [or situation].” – Charlie

Tucker had this same problem when he was my age. He gave some great ideas of things to say:

– “Look, I’d love to keep hanging out with you but the reality is my apartment is a fucking shithole. I just moved in and haven’t even bought my furniture yet because I’ve been so busy and I feel like a fucking bum.”

– “I’d love to get out of here. Do you want to keep hanging out?”
If she yes, then it’s your place or hers. Bring up why your place sucks and why, be honest. “Cool if we go to your place?”

Making jokes about it are better than feeling shame about it. Millions of people are in the same situation. She has probably been in the same situation at one point or another in her life.

@50:00 – You don’t need everything for her to be very attracted to you

Tucker explains how you only need a few things for her to be attracted and if you are progressing upwards she will be happy. He’s explained this really well in this podcast about being young and not having your shit together.

“I bet she already knows that you have a shitty apartment and that you’re not making a ton of money. She’s cool with that because she’s attracted to other parts of you…. If she wanted that guy [with a ton of money], she’d with that guy. She went on 2 dates with you. What more proof do you need that she likes you?” – Tucker

“None.” – Me

“Stop crippling yourself. Let her tell you that she’s not into you.” This was a call back to Episode 8 when I blew a great opportunity to date a cute girl who really liked me because I thought she was better than me. So stupid and arrogant but that’s what I do.

@51:30 – Great girl that I met at improv

I didn’t explain this that well in the podcast so I will write about it here:

It was the 2nd or 3rd class improv class where I noticed this cute fun chick might be into me:

– She’s really friendly.
– I notice her staring at me or I look up and she’s looking at me (eye contact) in the middle of class.
– During a class break, I was talking to our teacher, then went down to chill with everyone else. I was by myself and went to grab a glass of water. She was with a group by the cooler talking. 1) She roped me into the conversation saying, “… And Joe just moved here …” She had remembered when I introduced myself to the class that I had just moved here. And then I turned and I was talking with them. 2) She also said, “I’m so glad you’re here at improv with us.” She made it a point to say she was glad I was there, which was really nice and a clear signal that she liked me.

The semi-date with her: Last Friday I went to an improv show where my whole group went out together to see our teacher. Nobody showed up. (too cold? wrong show?). Then 10 minutes before show started, she was there. She had gone and seen an earlier show. She was still there. We got to talking, she was tipsy, and had a bad day at work.

We saw show together. It was great. When we sat down together she said something like, Because it was just us. And I was thinking wtf do I say to that and I just looked at my hands and said, “Well I need a drink right now then because I don’t know what to do with my hands.” (Ricky Bobby reference) She thought it was funny. And she was touching me a lot.

We went to a cool cocktail bar by the improv place. I was leaving improv and she kind of rushed to follow me out or wanted to leave with me and I was like hey let’s go get a drink at this bar and talk. And we did and it was a lot of fun talking to her. Part of me wanted to make her feel better and part of me wanted to see where this is going so I took her to bar that we go to for impro and it was backed.

She’s just a fun chick and there’s chemistry there. She was giving me compliments, “your watch is sexy” … “you are smart, Joe”

Having fun = doing a play by play of another guy’s awful game:

She saw her old manager hitting on this chick next to us and he looked kind of drunk so I just started making fun of him and doing a play-by-play of what this guy was saying, her reaction, etc. It was just loud enough for him not to hear it. It was fun for me, I don’t think she was laughing, but she was interested.

After he left w/o her number, I was like “I wonder what he said to her?” And the improv girl I was with got her attention and was started a conversation then we found out she was new to Austin. And we just started talking with her.

Found out she was from Boston and I said “You’re from Boston? Thank god you are here! That place is awful. I’ve never been but I hear so many bad things about it. A guy I work with was shitting on that city today.” Then she asked what did they say? And I just led off with “Well for 1 it’s really racist there.” And I think she got defensive after that but we still had fun with it.

@56:00 – “Just ask her out!”

I haven’t asked her out yet. I don’t know why, probably because I’m afraid of fucking up or it going bad then going to improv is weird.

Next Week’s Goals

  • Go out with the nurse and report back.
  • Go out with the improv girl and report back.
  • Keep meditating, at least 5 minutes every day
  • Write in 5 minute journal (5 minutes in morning, and 5 at night)
  • Read Daring Greatly

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